S3E2: Therapy vs. Prayer: A Generational Divide in the Hispanic Community?
Summary: In this episode of College Conversations, host Jeff Sherrod is joined by Gregg Garner and student guests Julian Carrion and Rebecca Castellanos to discuss the intersection of mental health and faith on college campuses. They explore the stigma surrounding therapy, particularly within Hispanic communities, and how it contrasts with the acceptance of spiritual guidance from pastors. The conversation delves into the challenges students face regarding mental health and the importance of accountability and support from friends and faith. Tune in for an insightful discussion on whether therapy and prayer can coexist in the journey of healing and personal growth.
[00:00:05.75] - Jeff Sherrod
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I'm joined, as always, by the president and founder of the Institute for God, Mr. Gregg Garner. This week we have a couple student guests, both of them sophomores. One is the Student Government Association President, Mr. Julian Carrion. And then we also have Ms. Rebecca Castellanos. In this episode, we're talking about mental health challenges on college campuses. And we're hearing kind of both sides of this from what it looks like when students themselves engage in therapy and how that interacts with their faith. And then what does it look like for someone who is interacting with someone who's in therapy to continue to hold people accountable to the truths of God's word? One of the things that's fun about this episode, I think, is that both of our student guests come from Hispanic backgrounds. So they get to talk about what that looks like and then what that looks like outside of that cultural context. I think you guys are going to have a great time listening to this episode. Thanks, as always, for joining us and. And College Conversations. All right, so in this episode, we're talking about title of this episode, Therapy versus Prayer. And maybe we'll say therapy and prayer.
[00:01:14.78] - Julian Carrion
I don't know.
[00:01:15.04] - Jeff Sherrod
I don't wanna get into it too much.
[00:01:16.45] - Rebecca Castellanos
versus Prayer.
[00:01:17.46] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, therapy.
[00:01:18.82] - Rebecca Castellanos
Like going against each other.
[00:01:20.64] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah. They're kind of combative in this scenario.
[00:01:23.51] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, man.
[00:01:23.68] - Julian Carrion
Yeah.
[00:01:24.09] - Jeff Sherrod
All right.
[00:01:24.98] - Gregg Garner
Maybe you can help us.
[00:01:26.40] - Jeff Sherrod
So the question.
[00:01:27.06] - Gregg Garner
Where are we going?
[00:01:27.84] - Jeff Sherrod
Question we're asking is, can mental health and faith coexist another way of saying this? Because you're going to say, obviously, yes.
[00:01:34.73] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
[00:01:36.51] - Jeff Sherrod
But what we're really exploring in this one is the stigma related to mental health practices, including therapy and going to therapy with faith. You know, what kind of stigmas might exist within the church?
[00:01:49.78] - Gregg Garner
Don't you feel like that's, like, a question for, like, the older generations? I don't think. Do you guys have a stigma when it comes to therapy at all? I mean, y'all are coming from Hispanic background.
[00:01:59.54] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:02:00.01] - Gregg Garner
I mean, you're working.
[00:02:01.09] - Rebecca Castellanos
Your family.
[00:02:01.82] - Gregg Garner
Your family probably did, right? Like the old older generations. But you guys, as. As Gen Z, like, do you have any stigma against it? Or is it just the lingering voices of, like, your dad being like, you don't need no therapy or whatever it.
[00:02:13.37] - Rebecca Castellanos
Is, like, how's it work for crazy people? That's usually what I heard.
[00:02:17.06] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Therapy's for crazy people.
[00:02:18.24] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah. So I'd say it's a lot of that. You were saying lingering, like, voices that.
[00:02:23.86] - Gregg Garner
Was quote fingers, by the way, when I said therapy.
[00:02:27.84] - Rebecca Castellanos
You know, I'd be part of those crazy people if that's. That was the case. But it's definitely working through the stigma of our parents and older generation and then kind of like just even coming to terms with what that looks like in our lives, being it like therapy being such a normal thing for people our age or such a progressive thing for our generation. I definitely say it's more kind of like, at least like for like our Hispanic, you know, community.
[00:03:04.86] - Gregg Garner
Because that's another component.
[00:03:06.18] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:03:06.50] - Gregg Garner
That we have to add into this. Right. Because you guys, I mean, I don't know when we're gonna flip the labeling from minority to majority, but I think give us another generation to understand.
[00:03:18.50] - Jeff Sherrod
The report is especially like in Bible colleges and Christian colleges. It's going to happen even before.
[00:03:23.09] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah. But right now I think we're still falling into the minority category. So we do have the minority element coming from Hispanic families, but then we're also the mainstream component. So I think, I think for freedom of communication, we could say things like with our white friends and then my community back home or something like that. All right. Because with your white friends, if they found out you're in therapy, how they gonna feel supportive.
[00:03:52.18] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:03:52.62] - Rebecca Castellanos
Great for you. Like, that's awesome.
[00:03:54.69] - Gregg Garner
And then now with your, your Hispanic community, so I don't say anything. You're going to get what's wrong with you. And, and like the, the, the way that you kind of respond to this whole thing is like, I wonder if like even your white friends or the white community at large is like, gosh, man, why is the Hispanic community so archaic? And like, their position on therapy, like, like, we're like, maybe it's because they're poor, under educated.
[00:04:22.68] - Rebecca Castellanos
I don't even think a lot of them even, like, go as far as to question it, you know, or even be like, why, why is your community like this? Why is your, like your background like this? I don't think a lot of them really have, well, let's do it.
[00:04:34.74] - Gregg Garner
Let's do it for everybody. Because here's the thing for me, I'll help everybody with this because maybe the white community is like, yeah, go my therapist. But like, with Hispanic communities, just in general, especially if you're talking like first generation immigration and stuff, finances and expendable income just isn't available. And so when it comes to like spending money, because that's the thing here, like, therapists cost money.
[00:04:57.08] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yes.
[00:04:57.62] - Gregg Garner
You're paying 100 bucks an hour on average. To go talk to somebody who sometimes doesn't talk the whole time. Just take notes. And so you got like a bi vocational pastor like your dad, who's like preaching on Sundays and also going to work during the week and trying to, like, negotiate the education of his kids. He ain't gonna have the expendable income.
[00:05:19.32] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:05:19.73] - Gregg Garner
To do that. But here's the thing. In your communities, let me ask you this. What would happen if you're like, well, I talked to my pastor.
[00:05:25.47] - Julian Carrion
They're gonna support it. I'm like, that's what you should be doing.
[00:05:29.02] - Gregg Garner
So in the Hispanic community, right. It's like. It's like therapy comes from the church. The church and pastors. But in white community, what the trend that we're observing is therapists are now the new priests.
[00:05:40.67] - Jeff Sherrod
Yes, right.
[00:05:41.35] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:05:41.73] - Gregg Garner
Therapists are the ones.
[00:05:42.62] - Jeff Sherrod
You have an issue, you go to your therapist because.
[00:05:45.77] - Gregg Garner
And now go back to what I was talking about, where if you're part of the white audience, again, I'm not trying. See, I get to talk like this because I'm part white, so I get to be at both camps. So take it easy on me. But if you were listening to this and you're like, yeah, oh, gosh, I can't believe that community doesn't accept therapy. I love therapy. I've been in therapy my whole life. Whatever is there. It's not that your community doesn't have therapy. It's that the therapy comes from the ministers in your congregation.
[00:06:14.07] - Julian Carrion
Different institution.
[00:06:15.31] - Gregg Garner
But then what's the do Dominant cults are going to be like, well, they don't have proper education in the therapy and they don't have the licensure and they definitely don't charge.
[00:06:24.50] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yes.
[00:06:25.83] - Gregg Garner
So it's interesting, right? Like. Like this therapy culture, if you were to compare it to clergy, the big difference, I think, is price tag.
[00:06:36.00] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah, no, exactly.
[00:06:37.93] - Julian Carrion
Yeah. I know with my friends now, it's more like when I had this problem, I talked to my therapist and she talked me through it. And then back home it was like, well, I just went to pastor and then he talked me through it. That was fine. So, like, sometimes I'd be like, is your therapist your God? And then they were like, is your pastor your God? And I'm like, that's a real thing.
[00:06:57.07] - Gregg Garner
Right. Because now I think in Christian circles, if you talk too much about the ministers in your congregation, all of a sudden you're going to have like some, I don't know, like, Christian Karen. Be like, that's toxic spirituality. They're going to Be like, we need to. You need to create boundaries because boundaries are healthy. Go see your therapist. But the therapist has a financial incentive to be present where the mentor or the sponsor or the pastor is part of your church, they're there because they care about you.
[00:07:31.18] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. And that's, I mean, like, even if we go back 150 years in the United States, like it wasn't uncommon for the pastor to do medical care for the pastor to be the school teacher. You know, there was a lot of lines that got crossed that we would say. And I think that the prevalent wisdom.
[00:07:48.00] - Gregg Garner
And we're not advocating that that's especially as post secondary education institution.
[00:07:52.94] - Jeff Sherrod
But I do think though, that it's to acknowledge that there's just a cultural difference. To say, like, we want this person who has studied the Bible to only speak into the most narrow part of what we perceive faith to be and they really shouldn't have other things because otherwise they're crossing boundaries or whatever else. Yeah, it's looked at negatively. Yeah, I don't personally like that. I don't, you know, because it's the people you would ultimately want. Like they've studied God's word. Right. Hopefully they have more insight than just on what we sometimes again, narrowly.
[00:08:24.07] - Gregg Garner
But our therapists don't learn the Bible. Yeah, they don't learn the Bible. Our pastors are supposed to have learn the Bible. Like, I've never had a therapist pray with me and, but I've had pastors pray with me. I've never had a therapist give me practical feedback that would excite my spiritual walk. It's typically the tools that they learned in school, which I don't think are bad. Yeah, necessarily. But I don't think they can replace what it is that spiritual leadership gives. But I think the dominant culture that is utilizing therapy, they just feel like the church is ill equipped to attend to that. And so one of the trends that we're seeing in post secondary education is how many schools are trying to open up, especially even Bible colleges, counseling programs, therapy programs. And I think even, even, even for us as an institution, that's, that has to become a consideration just because we want to inform the approach and say, okay, if you're going to have Christian counselors, let's make sure they know the Bible and there'll be these other hoops to jump through. But it's just, it's, it's now it feels like it's part of the culture now, but in the Hispanic culture and maybe in some other minority communities, it's not yet.
[00:09:54.22] - Julian Carrion
Yeah, it's not. It's definitely talked about too, because my mom, like, as they get older, they're like reflecting on their lives. Like, wow, we have a lot of crap that we need to work through. But like, even still, they're like, but we're not gonna go to someone to seat to talk about it, Especially a stranger. Yeah, exactly.
[00:10:08.55] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:10:08.95] - Julian Carrion
She's like, I'd rather just go talk with my friends who know me my whole life and know how to speak to me, then pay extra money when I'm trying to pay my mortgage, but also work this school that already stresses me out. So she's like, I don't have any more time to do anything. And my dad's like, he's machismo. He's like, I'm not. I'm not doing that crap. I think I'm kind of like gangster in that way too. Like some of my friends to go to therapy, I'm like, there's no way they're helping you that much, bro. Like, I second guess that a lot. And then I was like, well, they probably. And they have a lot of trauma, so they probably should go through that. But I'm like, do they know the Bible? That's like my biggest concern. I was like, I know, like, you're getting help, but like, at the same time, I don't want this to become something that's more important than you getting healing from Scripture.
[00:10:53.75] - Gregg Garner
I've seen this because I've seen where I've even seen Bible school graduates who've learned the word of God. They get in situations now where they're surrounded by people who have issues based upon the environment they're growing up. Let's say they're working with kids in after school program, or they're. They're working at some other job that puts them in an environment with non Christians or even Christians. You're just struggling. And whatever scripture they learn, all of a sudden it culminates in their need to learn counseling or learn how to therapeutically approach a situation. And, you know, there are a lot of Christian organizations that are offering degrees in therapeutic services, but how much of it is really based on scripture and not just, you know, like, all of our phones are probably iPhones, but you can't tell because we have covers on them, right? Like different skins on them. So in the same way, like, how much of these courses is just a Christian skin and underneath it's still rooted in Freud or somebody else that's, you know, seminal to psychotherapy?
[00:12:11.45] - Jeff Sherrod
I think a lot yes, that's my opinion.
[00:12:14.61] - Gregg Garner
I just feel like people in that field are super offended right now.
[00:12:19.62] - Jeff Sherrod
But there is what is perceived as like a growing mental health issue, especially among young people. Like, I collected some of the recent studies. This is in 2022 study of 18 to 24 year olds. This is from the National Institute of Mental Health and Substance Abuse and the Mental Health Services Administration. So they did major studies, but this is, this is a government study. They said 1 out of or 33% of 18, 24 olds have some kind of diagnosable mental disorder.
[00:12:51.09] - Gregg Garner
So one third.
[00:12:52.13] - Jeff Sherrod
One third can be. And they have ways that they're.
[00:12:54.60] - Gregg Garner
They diagnose each other. Man yalls generations 100 y'all are diagnosing each other based upon like social media criteria.
[00:13:02.75] - Jeff Sherrod
This one's saying that it's like if you went to a physician or someone in healthcare, one out of three of them would be like, yep, there's a diagnosable mental disorder. So 1 out of 25 have some kind of anxiety disorder. 20.
[00:13:19.28] - Gregg Garner
What's the critical mass, though, in these percentages where you're just like, that's life.
[00:13:23.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I think it's a good question.
[00:13:25.35] - Gregg Garner
This is called being alive.
[00:13:27.87] - Jeff Sherrod
And how do. Yeah. How do any of this. It gets different because if, you know, I'm not looking into what questions they're asking. Does life overwhelm you sometimes? You know, I don't know. Like, you know exactly what questions they're getting.
[00:13:38.78] - Gregg Garner
No, these are the questions. These are the questions that are asked. But you know, you look at like our parents or your girls, grandparents generation, they have like a rule. I'm not saying anything to the doctors.
[00:13:49.92] - Julian Carrion
Yeah.
[00:13:50.59] - Gregg Garner
Because they know that's tied to their insurance premiums and they're not going to tell their doctor. They're sad because then that turns into a depression diagnosis which then now increase their premium. So they're like, smart about it. It doesn't mean that they couldn't have answered the question to up that 33% criteria. Like, at what point, seriously, at what point do we just realize this is the human condition?
[00:14:11.38] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:14:12.17] - Gregg Garner
And we all need the Lord. Yeah. Get back to good old Steve Green. People need the Lord chorus.
[00:14:18.58] - Jeff Sherrod
I had a professor one time, he was talking about his grandmother, I think, so that she would have been older. But she, she came over from Ireland when she had a hard life. And he would always say, my grandmother used to say, nervous breakdowns in American luxury. You know, like almost saying, like, I didn't have time for that. Yeah. But. And maybe there is Something to the fact. It's like, if there's something going on and you're from a place that was just harder. I don't know, maybe there's a way of saying it. Then you just suck it up.
[00:14:47.75] - Gregg Garner
I do notice that. And you guys talk to us about this. I have noticed that your generation seems to be more comfortable with allowing themselves. I mean, you guys will even use the term to crash out. You guys just allow you to be like, that's what's happening to me. Can't stop it. Here it is. Everybody watch it. Like, are y'all just more comfortable with that? Because what he's sharing about his professor is that that older generation was like, we don't have that luxury to crash out, so we're just going, but we gotta keep going.
[00:15:17.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:15:18.14] - Gregg Garner
Do you guys even see it that way, or how do you feel when you hear that?
[00:15:20.42] - Julian Carrion
It seems like people are more open to other people's emotions. So they're like, well, if you're feeling that, then you can feel that. And for me, I don't like that at all. I'm like, well, if you're mad, that doesn't give you a reason to, like, curse me out. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care if you're mad. You're supposed to have self control. That's the Bible says. I'm kind of hardcore about it. But at the same time, like, I work with you.
[00:15:41.26] - Jeff Sherrod
People are blaming mental health issues.
[00:15:43.37] - Julian Carrion
Exactly.
[00:15:43.92] - Jeff Sherrod
As a reason for not displaying a fruit spirit.
[00:15:46.37] - Julian Carrion
Or like, for instance, like, people like, oh, it's just my adhd. I'm like, no, you just can't focus. Like, that's just life. People can't focus at your age, so you just need to focus. Like, I don't understand what you want me to tell you, but, you know.
[00:15:57.20] - Gregg Garner
You talking like that, and I'm really enjoying this because there's so many other voices on the other side of what you're saying. Like, he's insensitive. He doesn't understand. He doesn't really struggle with what diagnosable thing I have to have. But then at the end of that, it's like, are we expected to create a new tolerance threshold for what it means to be a person filled with the spirit because you named it. Like, you have to have self control. And why can't we just humble ourselves and say, I'm out of control right now. I'm not living by spirit. Let me go pray. But we're like, let me get therapy. Let me take a Pill.
[00:16:32.20] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely do think it's. Even as we were talking about just therapy in general, I remembered my own therapy, therapeutic experiences. And there were many times that I've had to revisit those and be like, man, at that point it was just like, affirming me rather than really challenging me with the fact of, like, I need to be more disciplined, I need to be changing things about my life that. Or adjusting like, my perspective to where I just need to get over it, you know, or I just need to work through it and just like, figure. Figure things out and like, I guess more in the adult way or like, actually put myself in a situation where, yeah, what I'm feeling is difficult, but I am, like, building endurance. I am like, you know, growing in my patience, growing in my ability to communicate and articulate. And I do think, like, this generation, our generation is very like, free to, to affirm and doing so by accepting more of those crashing out moments or more of those lashing out moments or accepting more of our diagnosis. Because we lack the ability to just be like, no, we confronting one another and sharpening one another's character. And instead of just being like, no, yeah, we just got to let them do what they're doing and then just wait for it to kind of melt out and just move on with things. And so I think, yeah, because we.
[00:18:07.61] - Gregg Garner
Know, just like you were talking about, like, there's biblical expectation for our development as human beings which culminates in what we describe as the fruit of the spirit.
[00:18:16.42] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:18:17.00] - Gregg Garner
And we are supposed to build each other up into that. But if the only thing that's happening is an affirmation of the thing that makes you not that you're, you're not going to grow, you're not going to change. So when you were reflecting on your therapeutic experiences and just feeling affirmed about all those things, what, what actually changed for you? What. What made it so that you could even step back and realize, hold on a second. I'm. I'm not my diagnosis. I'm not just this thing to be affirmed. I'm a new creation in Christ. I can become. I can be healed. I can become someone different.
[00:18:49.11] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah. Education.
[00:18:51.09] - Gregg Garner
Coming here, like, you just went to a community college or, or four years.
[00:18:55.35] - Rebecca Castellanos
I was in, I was in a four year, like, institution while I was doing therapy and being affirmed and doing all those things. But coming here and like, receiving like a bib and even having those holistic exterior things that are meant to help us in our development along with the education we're receiving in the classroom, those things allowed me to reflect. Those things allowed me to really take a step back and look at just everything that was going on in me emotionally and mentally, and be like, okay, what are things that I just need to grow more in my understanding of and mature in, rather than, like, just continuing to give myself excuses for, you know, this. This whole, like, mess of things that are going inside, you know.
[00:19:49.06] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:19:49.60] - Rebecca Castellanos
So I think, like, education was what. What has helped me reflect back. Education has been what's helped me.
[00:19:55.41] - Gregg Garner
Biblical education.
[00:19:56.16] - Julian Carrion
Yeah.
[00:19:56.39] - Rebecca Castellanos
Biblical education has been what's helped me, like, label those things or even just be like, this is just me growing.
[00:20:03.29] - Gregg Garner
I think a lot of people who would be listening to this would be thinking, I have gotten to biblical education. I go to church twice a week, or I have gone to Biblical education. The liberal arts school I'm at. I took a few Bible classes. We're not talking about that.
[00:20:17.01] - Rebecca Castellanos
No, right.
[00:20:17.60] - Gregg Garner
We're talking about, like, a deep dive into scripture that is so demanding of your time. It's a period of years where you're immersed and it's bringing about the transformation of mind, the renewal of mind, so that we're not conformed to this world. Because as you're talking, the idea of just being affirmed in who you are and what you're doing is so unbiblical in that the Bible will say, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. In other words, everybody's a mess, and everybody needs a Savior, and everybody needs the grace and mercy of a savior who's gonna walk us through our stages of development and growth so we can be conformed to the image of God in Christ. And if we are just affirming each other in our. In our mess, it can kind of turn hopeless.
[00:21:11.75] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:21:12.78] - Gregg Garner
You know? Yeah. You seem to resonate with that. Tell us about it.
[00:21:17.18] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah, I, like. I, like, went to therapy for, like, I guess, like, three years or so. I, like, it came down to the point where I just. I was, like, received diagnosis, got medication, like, was doing all those things like that. You know, you see in the process of someone going to therapy and, you know, taking that avenue and.
[00:21:40.25] - Gregg Garner
But.
[00:21:41.06] - Rebecca Castellanos
But, like, I just didn't really feel like things were really getting much better. And I was like, okay. Like, yeah, this is great. I have someone I can, like, talk to about my issues in a very. And they have, like, unbiased things, but I still felt, like, very unheard and unseen in so many ways, because I was more than just, like, the issues that I was Displaying. I was like, this person has no context also for, like, my culture has no context for, like, my situation. Like, there'd be times where I just have to take bits and pieces of what I was being given, because I was like, there. I was like, I know my context, my culture, where I come from, my parents, and, like, those things aren't necessarily applying to me. So it was. It would just feel kind of, like. Like a hopeless kind of, like, waste of time because I was like, man, like. Like, this isn't really, like, doing much other than, like, affirming me, and I'm not really getting any better.
[00:22:40.00] - Gregg Garner
You don't want to be affirmed in the condition of suffering.
[00:22:44.02] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah, I was like, I just. I don't want to, like, start medic, like, continue to take medication. I want to be able to see that there's a point where I can move on from that. And I was just like, I don't really see that other than, like, we're honestly just continuing to, like, up my doses on things, trying new things. I, like. I don't know. I was kind of, like, on, like, seven different types of medications in, like, a span of two years. And it's kind of like, I don't want that for my life, you know, And I. In the way that I, like, I saw that my therapy journey was going was, like, not necessarily. It wasn't going away from that, and it was kind of like continuing to, like, see all those things still being part of, like, my development. I was like, I don't want to be 30 and, like, taking, like, just constant medication just to be able to function. I was like, I want to be able to, like, you know, put this down with him and be like, man, like, I'm in a place where I can, like, you know, function, be human, still struggle, but being able to have healthy, like, friendships, healthy environments where, like, I'm able to struggle but know that I can move through it in a way that I'm pushing towards endurance and growth.
[00:23:57.66] - Julian Carrion
Yeah.
[00:23:58.15] - Rebecca Castellanos
But it just, you know, being in therapy was just, like, it. That's not the. The hope that I had for my life. It really ended up kind of being, like, another direction.
[00:24:08.50] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, it's insightful. I. I think it's important that our audience knows we're not trying to take a position against therapy and say things better or medicating or anything like that. What we're. What we're trying to contrast is, can. Can therapy replace the. The kind of apparatus that the Bible gives that can Come even through our churches or our friend groups, our communities, that has us focusing on those spiritual disciplines such as scripture reading and really learning the Bible prayer. And I mean, just. Even some of the exercises that therapists will give you, like, if you were to just look at it, you're gonna go, oh, yeah, it's called prayer. Or, yeah, like, they're like, just, just breathe. Like that's, that's a, say, law meditation. Yeah. Just think about positive affirmations, things you might as well just quoted Philippians 4. And let's go ahead and find whatsoever is of good report. And like, often. And even the therapists don't know they're speaking these things that come from Scripture. So my concern as a person in the position I'm in is that we start thinking that this, this stuff that is not grounded or rooted in Scripture, but though may be influenced by it, is the stuff we really need to get rather than realizing, no, no, no, this is. This is where the life and the source and the light is from. Let's go to the source. Let's grow and let's. Even as a Christian community, let's demonstrate to the world what happens when this is our daily bread, when this is the pill we take every day, when this is our medication.
[00:25:53.05] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:25:53.73] - Gregg Garner
And I think it's really hard. Jillian, you brought it up earlier. When you have these friends who have had trauma and you love them and you care for them, but at the same time, it's like, what meds do you want to take? What meds do you want to take? And if people don't want to take the time to pray, they don't want to discipline their schedules to make room for God, of course they're going to be crashing out all the time. And then, then you just put them, diagnose them, put them on meds. It may stop the external crashing, but the internal crashing still happening. You know, tell me more about that, because I know that just knowing you, you're a very caring guy, you love your friends, but you're also a man of standards. Like, you're like, man, this is what I've learned from God. And this is the conviction I'm sticking to. How do you handle when you can clearly see your friends are trading in what the bread of life is supposed to do for them and trading it in for what sounds like can become excuses for losing their. Maybe conservatively we'd call it their Christian witness, but otherwise we might just say their spirituality.
[00:27:09.89] - Julian Carrion
I think recently what has helped me is we're taking psalms Class right now.
[00:27:13.84] - Gregg Garner
Nice.
[00:27:14.18] - Julian Carrion
In the psalms, we learn the lament psalms where some of these psalms, like the whole psalmist, the psalmist is crying out to God, either grew with grief or suffering or someone's retaliating against them. And like, why is this happening to me? Like, but then most of them end with them praising God at the end and like, there's no like, evident change in their situation, but they're ended up praising God and involving God and they're thinking thought process despite them suffering. So for me, I, I always like, grab right now I'm just in my mind those two conflicting thoughts are like my hardcore background of like, well, you just have to learn scripture and the scripture is going to heal you the more you put the work in with your friends. Then also, like, think about psalms and like, God makes room for human emotions. And like, God's like, my word to you is human words to me. Which is like an interesting thought.
[00:28:09.23] - Gregg Garner
That's good.
[00:28:10.40] - Julian Carrion
Which Ms. Kagay, I'm quoting her. So Professor Kagay, Professor Laurie Kagay. That's her quote. That's not my quote.
[00:28:16.69] - Gregg Garner
He's turned into an academic too.
[00:28:21.64] - Julian Carrion
She'll kill me if I don't. But anyways. Just kidding, Just kidding. I think especially like, even some of my friends, they, the ones that are in my class, I've seen them grow a lot in the last year and a lot of them even tell me, like, it's because the way I hold them accountable and like, I know, I understand that you're suffering and you've had a terrible upbringing. Like, it's disgusting the way like you were treated. Like, now you're with people who you can trust, like, who you can trust who can help you heal. Like, I'm not going to abandon you like your father did or like your sister did or your friends did. Like, I'm here, like, I'm serving abroad with you. Like, I'm going to go to work every Saturday and it gets screamed at by youth basketball moms to crank out money so I can go abroad with you. Like, I'm in the grind every day with you. Like, I'm not going to ban you. And I think the constant affirmation that we're in this together, like Jesus, his last prayers, like, before he leaves is he wants his church to be unified. And I always remind my friends that, like, the way we heal together, the way we grow together is by serving with one another and learn the Bible together. Like, I understand that you're going through crap and you want to like, go to other sources, but, like, the only source that's really going to get to you is God. Like, and I don't know how else to sugarcoat that. Like, just look at the fruit. Like, this friend, he was this person who wanted to stay in his room all day. He wanted to just not hang out in groups. But now he's like, a real active person, wants to hang out in groups all the time, has great relationships with mentors, can articulate the word of God now. And that's only a year of learning God's word. Like, what else can happen with you if you apply yourself?
[00:30:02.88] - Gregg Garner
That's so good, I think, for maybe a lot of people listening when they hear about learning the word of God, and then they've heard people in social media talking about therapy culture, they are introduced to vocabulary that labels their situation. So, like, you noted that in your learning of the Psalms, you've been able to attend to grief, trauma, the sense of having the kind of conflict that is a result of maybe defamation or just having enmity with somebody and. And a feeling like that. All of those terms which you would find in therapy culture vernacular are in the Scripture. And I think a lot of people who hear about Bible study don't know that the Bible speaks to all that. I think a lot of people who learn the Bible, they're like. I guess maybe on the one hand, they're like, there are Bible stories about where we come from and what happened with the history of Israel and the church. And then there's like, theology where you learn about the omnific attributes of. Of God and. And religious ritual. But it just feels so far removed from the mess that we're in.
[00:31:13.15] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:31:13.76] - Gregg Garner
And therapy culture seems to give words to that mess. But I think it's because people aren't teaching the Bible. Yeah, yeah. They're teaching religion. They're teaching Christianity, but not the Bible. Because you teach the Bible, you're gonna. You're gonna do all of this and more and in a sustainable fashion, because rarely, rarely. I'm not saying they're not out there, but rarely do you meet a therapist who's like, listen, I'm gonna work with you and equip you in such a way that you won't need me in a little bit of time here and you won't need these meds. They're out there, but they're rare. Where when it comes to the kind of empowerment that comes through an education in the word of God, that's exactly the goal. It's like, hey, you might have come in subject to the sins of your fathers, using theological language. If you guys don't know that that comes from the Scriptures where God is speaking to Moses and saying there's. There's generational issues that impact the next generation that come from the shortcomings of the previous generation. And it's not even like God is necessarily like pointing extreme blame onto those parties. It's just what you're coming into. But then if that's what you come out of, God wants to save us from that. And in saving us from that, he wants to make a new creation where we're. Where we're transformed and we're changed and that we aren't just recipients of this therapy. But now we get to be like, you're talking about participants, an extension of the therapy, because we're living testimonies to say, it worked. I'm clean, I'm healthy. I'm still a person who will come into situations because we're not going to ever escape these circumstances that will create sometimes what people call the triggers in our lives. But we learn God in such a way and get his spirit in such a way, we can now handle it. We can now contend with the stress. We can now contend with the suffering and the pain. And I think people need to know. The Bible speaks to all that. Right?
[00:33:20.24] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I mean, I love that, Greg, because I think that if we were saying we're not immune from any of us. Right. All of us have to be transformed from the renewing of our mind. So all of us have mental issues. Everybody that has to.
[00:33:33.00] - Gregg Garner
And that's what I was trying to point out earlier. Like, at what point are we going to admit on these percentages? That's just all of us.
[00:33:38.28] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. We're just describing the world.
[00:33:40.75] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. The human condition, which the Bible already.
[00:33:43.27] - Jeff Sherrod
Told us that we have minds that are at enmity with God. You know, like, we have mindsets that are just bad and there's a result to this. It's not just affirming the. Like, we could say, hey, let's all get on the same page. We all admit it's bad. Right. Or this is not good. But then the Bible is saying, this is how you are transformed. This is. This is what it means to put on Christ. This is what it means to have a new identity, to change and to be a kind of person that does change. One more question I want to ask. This is along the lines of what you were asking before. I've talked to some people who are working. They're in therapy for a specific reason. And, you know, I think it could even be an issue related to spirituality. But then sometimes the response could be like, well, I'm working through that with my therapist. And it feels a little bit like they're saying, don't talk to me about.
[00:34:29.90] - Rebecca Castellanos
It, don't talk about this.
[00:34:30.84] - Jeff Sherrod
I'm already doing it. So I'm curious what, in that situation, I'll open this up for you, Gregg too, or you guys as well.
[00:34:36.11] - Gregg Garner
I mean, I'd love to hear their perspective in their generation, I would say.
[00:34:39.13] - Jeff Sherrod
So let's. What would you guys say in that way? Someone's, they, they are working through something in therapy, but now they're kind of saying, hey, leave me alone about this.
[00:34:48.38] - Gregg Garner
Do you feel like that's what they're saying when they're telling you that? Or.
[00:34:51.75] - Julian Carrion
I don't know, maybe you will have more experience in this area.
[00:34:56.73] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah, I've definitely been the person on the other end kind of being like, I don't want to talk about it. Like, I'm already doing it with my therapist. Not something I want to bring up with you. I do think I'm trying to think through the question. I think it's like even just like not wanting the accountability on the more personal end. Because like with your therapist, it's like your therapist, you're, you, you're kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna listen to this person, but this person is not really like. And I can also withhold some things I don't necessarily like, they don't know me to the fullest to even know. Like, oh, yeah, like I'm not.
[00:35:33.42] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, they just know you by what you tell.
[00:35:35.34] - Julian Carrion
Yeah, exactly.
[00:35:35.84] - Rebecca Castellanos
Exactly.
[00:35:36.23] - Gregg Garner
And how you show up.
[00:35:37.26] - Rebecca Castellanos
So what image it is that you have given them or portrayed them to be. And so I think like, when someone on, in your day to day life is asking you about something that you're struggling personally and you're kind of like, at least like a lot of times where I was very standoffish, I was kind of like, I don't really want to talk about it because I was like, I don't want to bring you into something that you can probably see in me, you can probably challenge me in or even you can speak into in a way that I maybe even out of pride, don't want to necessarily, like, contend with because then I'm going to feel less affirmed and more challenged and more man. Like, like start thinking of, like, what if my way of approaching it has been wrong? Like, what if I do need A maybe change my perspective or grow in this or just be mature about it. I think it's even just. Yeah, like, at least on my personal end was a lot of not wanting to have that accountability because I was comfortable where I was in that affirmation, in that slow growth. If there even was anything going on, then I was being challenged in my day to day because of a person that was there, who knew me, who. Who saw me every day, who, like, could tell if I wasn't, like, you know, being full of my, like, all of me or honest or things like that. That's kind of my take on it.
[00:37:15.09] - Julian Carrion
And it kind of sucks on the other end of, like, even your friend, because your friend wants to help you through that process. And as. So as you said, like, they're with you day to day and if you don't open them up to, like, what your therapist is telling you, like, how are you supposed to implement the things to, like, trying to help you with if they're giving you, like, hey, these are things you should do when you're feeling this way. How are you supposed to have someone who actually helps you do that outside your therapist that you see maybe once a week? Which is just interesting. Like, it's like, at one point, does it become, like, unhealthy, that type of lifestyle? Like, yes, your therapist is saying something. But, like, the people like you hang out with every single day don't know what's happening. Like, you're just blocking them off. And I know for me, like, I'm a really caring friend, so, like, that could. If I was in that situation, it could feel like, really, like, like sad because I'm like, I want to know what's happening with you so I can be there for you. Because if I was going through it, I would want someone to be there to keep me accountable to. Like, because I know myself, I'm gonna say things I don't mean sometimes. I'm gonna go against my word sometimes, like, oh, I said I should do that and I didn't do it. I'm sorry. Like, we need those people that just like, yeah, you said that and you need to do this instead. Like, your therapist said. Yeah, because, like, therapy is a really good option for a lot of people. But, like, some people just close off their friends when it happens because, like, my therapist told me so. Like, I'm like, your friends.
[00:38:32.01] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah, they feel like it's to help.
[00:38:33.90] - Julian Carrion
You, like, through that. So I don't know. I just contend a lot with that too.
[00:38:38.94] - Gregg Garner
And I think too it seems like with your generation, like, there's a great desire to have friendships and deep relationships, but the culture of your generation is kind of averse to how you develop those get you there.
[00:38:53.63] - Julian Carrion
Like, so we're contradicting each other.
[00:38:56.30] - Gregg Garner
It's like you want to not be alone, but you're doing all the things.
[00:38:58.86] - Rebecca Castellanos
To be alone, literally. No, yeah, it's. It is very. Like it's so easy to just be like, oh yeah, like, I don't agree with that person. I'm just gonna cut them off and like move on. You know, like, that was such a, like such a common response. Instead of just being like, you're both are gonna think differently and like feel differently about things. And that's okay, you know, unless I'm finding just people, like just that constant of affirmation, like groups of people that just affirm what you believe when there's that tension. Like, I've seen, like, we're so easy to just be like, yeah, like just forget about them. Just move on.
[00:39:30.44] - Gregg Garner
Wouldn't it be interesting if. And there's probably a ton of studies on this, but if your generation was that heavily influenced by the fact there's no thumbs down button or no broken heart button or whatever it is, you know, it's only heart or thumbs up. You can only affirm.
[00:39:49.90] - Julian Carrion
Didn't Facebook used to have a thumbs down button?
[00:39:52.17] - Gregg Garner
They might, I don't know, I think they might have and then they took it away. But I don't think anything. I want one like you tap back does. You can choose it. My wife loves a good thumbs down for comedy. But it's like, it's interesting what you're talking about, because affirmations all over the place, but there's never the accountability of, hey, that's probably not good for you.
[00:40:15.26] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah. Maybe the comments, you think the comments.
[00:40:18.53] - Gregg Garner
But then you can also turn those off. Yeah, turn them off. Don't read them, edit them, filter them.
[00:40:23.50] - Julian Carrion
Funniest. Like, why are you turning off your comments, bro? Like, are you think. You think you're that cool? You think you're that popular? I'm just unfollow you at this point.
[00:40:30.57] - Gregg Garner
I think like some people turn off their comments. They don't want to hear. Yeah, they don't want to be challenged. They don't want to give you an opportunity to say anything. They just want you to affirm them. Yeah.
[00:40:38.23] - Jeff Sherrod
When you guys say turn off your comments, are you talking about social media or you just.
[00:40:41.26] - Rebecca Castellanos
Yeah.
[00:40:42.03] - Julian Carrion
Yes.
[00:40:42.55] - Jeff Sherrod
I don't understand what is that People.
[00:40:45.40] - Julian Carrion
Like post a picture and like say something, turn off the comments. Oh, because they want. They're just making a statement. They don't want anyone else to say anything. I think sometimes, like sports teams do this. They'll like post a loss, but they'll turn off the comments. So none of the fans could comment. Yeah, because like for Philly sports, they'll like just go crazy on the comments.
[00:41:04.07] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. You Philly people, you. You got, you got some things to say. It's true. This year you're saying good things.
[00:41:09.25] - Julian Carrion
Oh, yeah. Praising God and every season. Well, for the point you made about. What was the point you made? Oh, about like not agreeing with people. I mean, we're your friends. Like me and my friend Justice. We disagree a lot often and we don't be like, this is a conflict. Like, no, we just disagree on something. Like, well, I don't agree. He was like, well, okay. And then that's it. We just move on with our days. Like, I think some people are just too. Our generation is just too soft.
[00:41:37.17] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:41:37.61] - Julian Carrion
Like people are different. Like, it's like, it's like the one thing they miss in school now. I feel like people are like, everyone has to be like me, everyone has to be myself.
[00:41:45.71] - Gregg Garner
Which is so funny because all of this diversity inclusion feels like that's contradicting each other. It's not. The result isn't happening that they intended by doing this. It's just really making everybody become this same thing. That is unrealistic.
[00:42:03.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Like tolerance is highly valued, but being around people that are different than you doesn't seem to. It's like, I'm going to be tolerant of someone over there that's doing their own thing. Sure, I'm not going to judge them, but I really just want to be with a very small group of people that think exactly how I think. Terrible. I appreciate you guys. You guys did a great job. I really appreciate your guys insight into this topic. Greg mentioned it here. Obviously we're not talking about not doing therapy or when medications required. We're not saying that, but we are acknowledging that God has given us what we need for life and godliness. He's given us the people around us, people who can hold us accountable, push us on to love and good works.
[00:42:42.65] - Gregg Garner
And we can even call them friends.
[00:42:44.21] - Jeff Sherrod
Friends. He's given us word. He's given us a spirit and we have so much potential that we can access to experience that good life that's God promised us. So there's a lot of hope, you know, even as people are. If you are listening to this, you're like, I don't know where to turn to next. I would say turn to God. You know, like, find time in prayer and say like, God, I need help. I'm looking for friends. I'm going to disclose something to someone else who I can trust, who loves the Lord, and let that person help you. It can go a long way. I appreciate you guys. Thanks for being with us today on College Conversations. Until next week, we'll see you guys then. Thanks for joining us today on College Conversations. Please, like, subscribe share this episode with others. If you guys have a comment, we would love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about our work, you can visit us at theinstituteforgod.edu. Until then, we'll see you guys next time.
