S3E4 - Situationships
Summary: In this episode of College Conversations, host Jeff Sherrod, along with Gregg Garner and students Kaiden Lindholm and Emma Lyons, delve into the concept of "situationships" among Gen Z. They explore the nuances of these ambiguous relationships that lack clear definitions and commitments, discussing their prevalence and implications in both secular and Christian contexts. The conversation highlights the challenges of vulnerability, the impact of social media, and the importance of open communication in navigating relationships. Ultimately, the episode encourages listeners to reflect on their own experiences and the dynamics of modern dating. Join us as we unpack the complexities of relationships in today's world, focusing on the emerging trend of situationships and what they mean for young people navigating love and commitment.
[00:00:05.92] - Jeff Sherrod
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherrod. I am joined, as always, by the president of the Institute for God, Mr. Gregg Garner. We also have a couple students with us today, and today we're talking about relationships among students, more specifically, situationships. Now, if you've never heard of a situationship, you are not alone. I also had never heard of this term. And we're going to spend some time early on in this episode defining what this means by talking to some students. And for me, that might be one of the big takeaways, actually, before we even get into it, of this episode. Before we, as educators or as leaders in Christian circles, try to give advice or to help out young people, it's important that we first listen to them, understand where they're coming from. Unto that end, we have a couple students that we're hearing from them and their experiences, even the advice that they would give to other young people who are also thinking about relationships. You have a great time listening to this episode. Thanks for joining us as always. Let's dive right in. All right, let's. Let's get started.
[00:01:08.43] - Kaiden Lindholm
My name is Kaiden Lindholm. I'm a freshman here at the Institute, and I am from the United State of Washington.
[00:01:14.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Okay.
[00:01:14.45] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, gotcha.
[00:01:15.26] - Jeff Sherrod
One of the 50.
[00:01:16.28] - Kaiden Lindholm
One of the 50. That's what they say.
[00:01:17.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:01:19.71] - Emma Lyons
My name is Emma, and I am a freshman at the Institute. I'm from a small town outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[00:01:24.87] - Jeff Sherrod
Awesome. Well, thanks. Thanks for you guys being here today. Okay, so we're talking about. I'll just read the title. We're talking about dating Situationships and the Death of Commitment. Now, I'm just gonna go and ask you guys, have you guys ever heard this word, situationships?
[00:01:40.03] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, all the time.
[00:01:41.15] - Gregg Garner
All the time.
[00:01:45.37] - Jeff Sherrod
So I'm interested in how you guys would define the word if you have done a definition.
[00:01:51.68] - Gregg Garner
Am I in a situationship?
[00:01:53.76] - Jeff Sherrod
I don't. I don't think so.
[00:01:54.87] - Emma Lyons
Definitely not. I'd qualify that as a happy marriage, but yeah.
[00:01:58.76] - Gregg Garner
Oh, so a situationship. Help us. Yeah.
[00:02:01.34] - Emma Lyons
What is this?
[00:02:01.75] - Jeff Sherrod
What is this?
[00:02:02.34] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, I'll start. I think a situationship is more than a friendship, but not labeled as dating, and it just depends on where you're at and what season of life you're in and you depend on someone more. I would say that this is not a healthy thing. It is not a good thing, nor is it a biblical thing.
[00:02:22.00] - Gregg Garner
So there's some negative connotation to it, because I almost felt like you guys were describing a lot of People's relationships. I know. Especially people your age.
[00:02:29.83] - Emma Lyons
I think that I would say it's typically a negative thing in Christian circles, but I think in more worldly circles, it's definitely a normal thing. Like, it's very common to be in these. To be, like, in and out of them all the time. It's kind of like a, I like you, you like me, but we're not going to say anything. We're just going to kind of operate in this weird space of like, what do we do now? But we don't want to commit. We also don't want to not commit. So we're just kind of here.
[00:02:53.33] - Gregg Garner
Is there a. Is there an. I mean, the thing then that would make it not acceptable in the Christian realm must be a level of intimacy. Like, why wouldn't Christians be okay with this situation? Ship?
[00:03:09.12] - Emma Lyons
I think it depends on. I would say I think it depends on the circle. I've never really wanted to do this because I think I really appreciate, like, being able to trust a person and knowing where I'm at in that relationship with the person, whether it be friend or dating. But I think a lot of Christians, I think, tend to stay away because we have, like, such a high focus on, like, dating. To marry someone, that's, like, such a big focus in your Christian circles. And so people are like, oh, situationships. Like, they're situational, meaning that they're like, they're gonna end very quickly most of the time. Sometimes they can progress into more, but most of the time they won't. And so I think that for Christians.
[00:03:42.46] - Gregg Garner
So is it like pre diabetes? You know, like, everybody's got pre diabetes, and I have diabetes, but we're in a pre diabetes stage. You can reverse the outcome. You ain't gonna have diabetes. You can change some things, but we're still gonna call it diabetes prediabete. Is that what a situation?
[00:04:01.86] - Jeff Sherrod
Would you ever say. That's a great question. And would you ever say you're in a situationship, like, we are in a situationship?
[00:04:08.43] - Kaiden Lindholm
No.
[00:04:09.25] - Emma Lyons
No, that's not. Yeah, that's like, not something new.
[00:04:11.47] - Gregg Garner
So other people are like, they're in a situation.
[00:04:13.78] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:14.72] - Kaiden Lindholm
I think the whole point of a situationship is that you don't have the, like, accountability or the obligation to, like, address your feelings with someone. But it's the whole, like, oh, you get all the positive and good feelings from someone for X amount of time. And then when that doesn't work out, you can just move on to another person, but you're just Spending time with them. You're just hanging out with them. They're kind of like your. Your fallback person. Or like, I would say it's like a glorified rebound. Like a rebound for a longer time. After you get out of a bad relationship, you want to hang out with someone that you depend on. But the negative thing, and there's no.
[00:04:45.80] - Gregg Garner
Intimacy, like, qualification for it, you know, like, if I have prediabetes, they're gonna. There's this one little bunny commercial. Have you seen this bunny commercial? It's on TV right now. I've seen it between energizers. No, no, dude.
[00:05:01.19] - Emma Lyons
Sorry.
[00:05:02.19] - Gregg Garner
So it's this commercial and it's like these little bunnies playing in the background. But it then says, did you know, like, a bunch of people have prediabetes? Here, Here are five questions for you about prediabetes and then score points. It's like, give yourself a point. If you answer yes to every one of. Are you a man? So I'm like, that's crazy. Yeah, there's. Then that gives me one strike. And anyways, they ask other things like, that are related to, you know, the diagnosing pre diabetes. And they're like, if you have more than five, you likely have pre diabetes. Consult your physician. Then the commercial ends with now more video of cute bunnies. So it's just. It's an interesting commercial, but, like, there, There. There are. Is like diagnostic criteria that exist even for a worksheet to prediabetes. So my question for you guys is, like, prediabete, is there, like, diagnostic criteria to determine this is a situationship? Because right now I heard glorified rebound, and I'm hearing glorified rebound. Like, that means, like, a more positive version of a rebound.
[00:06:05.29] - Emma Lyons
I don't know. I don't know that it's necessarily all about the rebound. I think it's kind of like experiencing the benefits of being in a relationship without actually committing to being in a relationship. Relationship. It's like I experience these good feelings.
[00:06:19.19] - Gregg Garner
I just keep asking about the intimacy component. You guys, Are we talking for sure.
[00:06:23.51] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:06:23.68] - Gregg Garner
I mean, physical band.
[00:06:25.22] - Emma Lyons
I guess it depends on the person. I guess it depends on the person. I would say probably for the most part.
[00:06:29.95] - Gregg Garner
So we're saying, like, they're watching a movie. It's cuddle time.
[00:06:34.30] - Emma Lyons
I think it looks different for each situation.
[00:06:36.76] - Gregg Garner
So earlier you said and situationships.
[00:06:39.35] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, that's. Yeah, I know. That's what the.
[00:06:41.10] - Gregg Garner
It's getting complex. Why isn't this just called human relationships?
[00:06:45.62] - Emma Lyons
I Don't know. I think it's. I think gen zers like it because it's so frail and you can just kind of leave whenever you want. And there's not really. I think the idea is that there's no feelings hurt. I think there definitely are feelings hurt, but it's kind of like, oh, you can go off with this person and then the next day you're with another person. It's just a little situationship. It wasn't a big deal, but really I think it does end up being a big deal.
[00:07:08.94] - Gregg Garner
So in Christian circles, there's not a physical intimacy component? Only in secular circles, or is it in both just to varying degrees?
[00:07:20.42] - Emma Lyons
I don't know. I don't know the answer. I think probably Christians would. Would most of the time stay away from the physical intimacy component. Most of the time. Not all the time.
[00:07:30.87] - Gregg Garner
So. So, so help me understand how, how you cross a threshold. I'm very curious about this. How do you cross a threshold into it being a situationship? How is it just not a guy and a gal getting together to watch a movie because they. They want. They like that movie?
[00:07:48.17] - Kaiden Lindholm
I think the situationship has a lot to do with, like, intentions.
[00:07:51.92] - Gregg Garner
And so, like, you're exploring the relationship, you just don't want to say that's what you're doing.
[00:07:55.88] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, it's not talked about. I think that's a big thing about situationships, is you can. I feel like both parties can, like, mutually understand that they have feelings for each other, but the situationship is present because they don't acknowledge that fact. And so they're kind of like, exploring this unexplainable feeling and realm of like, what are we? But we're not going to acknowledge it. And it's kind of awkward.
[00:08:16.63] - Gregg Garner
It's prediabetes, pre diabetes.
[00:08:20.22] - Jeff Sherrod
I read some articles because that's like, what I do is read articles. But I read some articles about situationships. And so they were like, this person was talking about. There's one article in the Atlantic that was just put out like last week about this that was interesting. But she was talking about, like, even some of the ways that people respond. Well, they'll say, like, I got feelings almost like you. Or caught feelings, like you contracted them, like you contracted feelings. Like, it's almost negative. Or another phenomenon. Like a girl will tell her friends the next day. She's like, hey, in the middle of night, I ended up, you know, telling this guy my feelings. And then they feel dumb that they put themselves out there because part of the strategy Is like in Gen Z is they don't want to put themselves out there and have it not be reciprocated. I feel like that's probably human on.
[00:08:59.90] - Gregg Garner
Some level, but very human. That's also phenomenal. Is called oversharing. This is. We're just. We're just creating.
[00:09:06.00] - Jeff Sherrod
We're just creating new things. So the idea is if we can have. Have some type of relationship in which we're both acknowledging we don't want it to define anything, then no one gets hurt.
[00:09:15.32] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:09:15.97] - Jeff Sherrod
In the end.
[00:09:16.59] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:09:17.09] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. I think the problem is though, is that people do end up getting hurt in the end. At least from what I've seen. Like, it's all about, like, wanting to avoid the pain. But then you get there and then you actually end up developing feelings, at least on one side, and then you walk away from that and you are.
[00:09:30.24] - Gregg Garner
So these feelings are aimed at intimacy then?
[00:09:34.75] - Emma Lyons
I guess so, yeah.
[00:09:36.11] - Kaiden Lindholm
I would agree with that. I would say that there's some hope that intimacy will come of it without.
[00:09:42.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Any of the other strings, without the commitment.
[00:09:45.97] - Kaiden Lindholm
And that's the problem. Because relationships should. There should be like strings attached. Like, if you cross a line, like, this is not so.
[00:09:51.50] - Gregg Garner
Okay, I'm going to give you a scenario from my childhood.
[00:09:53.58] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:09:53.88] - Gregg Garner
And then tell me how Gen Z sees this situation.
[00:09:57.10] - Kaiden Lindholm
Okay.
[00:09:58.05] - Gregg Garner
All right. I get a letter from Angie Escodo. I'm in seventh grade.
[00:10:04.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Nice.
[00:10:04.42] - Gregg Garner
Okay. The letter says, I really like you. Do you like me? There are two check boxes. One says yes, the other says no.
[00:10:12.99] - Kaiden Lindholm
You said seventh grade.
[00:10:13.95] - Gregg Garner
Seventh grade.
[00:10:14.46] - Kaiden Lindholm
Okay.
[00:10:14.84] - Gregg Garner
I check. Yes. I passed it back. Is this a situationship or am I in a relationship?
[00:10:19.78] - Kaiden Lindholm
That's a. I. I say that's a relationship.
[00:10:22.85] - Emma Lyons
I say that's just confessing feelings. I feel like there's a difference between a relationship and just confessing your feelings for someone.
[00:10:29.12] - Kaiden Lindholm
Maybe DTR.
[00:10:29.95] - Emma Lyons
That I was gonna say, you might wanna DTR.
[00:10:32.36] - Gregg Garner
Even if I'm 12?
[00:10:34.84] - Emma Lyons
I mean, if you're 12, I feel like you're just being like, yeah, I like.
[00:10:37.21] - Gregg Garner
So our relationship after that, here's where it gets awesome. Okay. We talked less.
[00:10:41.92] - Emma Lyons
Oh, yeah. Did you end up talking to other.
[00:10:44.75] - Jeff Sherrod
People though, that you.
[00:10:45.53] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was my girlfriend.
[00:10:47.78] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:10:48.12] - Gregg Garner
I was her boyfriend. We talked less. It was really, it was. It was kind of fun. And actually, I don't think we ever broke up. I think it just kind of still going. Ended. Well, it ended. But maybe, you know, I guess techn. Technically. No, actually, you know what? It did end because people were like, are you guys still a thing? And I was like, I don't think so. And then I think she got upset and then she ended it. So I think that's what happened. But I didn't know that it was a thing anymore.
[00:11:12.60] - Emma Lyons
I think the thing about.
[00:11:13.51] - Gregg Garner
I was 12.
[00:11:14.00] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. Situationships don't really, like, necessarily have a beginning and end. At least from what I've watched other people experience. Like, they don't have that over. Over. It's just like you just kind of subtly phase out until someone else finds it.
[00:11:25.64] - Kaiden Lindholm
Another person, I think.
[00:11:26.95] - Gregg Garner
Do you later on talk about them as like, the one that got away? Or like, that was my girlfriend, that was my boyfriend?
[00:11:33.03] - Emma Lyons
Not really. I think it's just like, oh, I talked to him once. Or like, oh, I saw that person.
[00:11:37.19] - Gregg Garner
So using the phrase I talked to them couldn't be as sterile as a conversation.
[00:11:41.49] - Emma Lyons
No, talked as in like, we talked kind of like we talked about on a. More.
[00:11:47.96] - Gregg Garner
So it is. It is a spectrum of intimacy.
[00:11:50.59] - Emma Lyons
Yes. Yes.
[00:11:53.69] - Jeff Sherrod
When I was in high school, we had, like, you. If you're. You were either dating, which we didn't often use, boyfriend, girlfriend, but it was dating. And then the step before that was talking.
[00:12:02.57] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:12:03.07] - Jeff Sherrod
And so that was like, what I.
[00:12:04.24] - Emma Lyons
Was used to talking is like, you're getting to know somebody for the intention of wanting to date them.
[00:12:09.54] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:12:10.08] - Emma Lyons
At a later point.
[00:12:11.73] - Gregg Garner
So how does anybody just have a friendship?
[00:12:15.97] - Emma Lyons
That's a good question. I don't know. Like, I feel like, like, like, if.
[00:12:21.26] - Gregg Garner
So when I was in college, I had a lot of friends that were girls and that was it. And we did talk and we did open up and share feelings. Was I in a situationship with all of them?
[00:12:37.03] - Kaiden Lindholm
No.
[00:12:37.86] - Gregg Garner
How do you know I wasn't? Ask me questions. Give me the diagnostic criteria. One, I'm a man. There's one point. There you go.
[00:12:44.69] - Kaiden Lindholm
What were your feelings with them when you were like, one on one? I feel like that could be a good question.
[00:12:48.19] - Gregg Garner
Like, it just depended with which one. I'll just picture one in my head. Like, kind of feelings, like, this is nice. I can vent about what's going on in my life right now. Wow. I like the company because I'm getting to hear about their perspective on the same situation. And that's informing me also. At that age, as you develop those conversations, you start looking at him, you're like, you know, she's kind of attractive.
[00:13:21.28] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:13:21.58] - Gregg Garner
And like, you start thinking along those lines. But I'm not sure ever in my mind I moved to the place where I was like, I'd like to pursue a marital relationship with this girl. It was just, she was a friend. But yeah, we opened up, we talked. What are those? What is that?
[00:13:39.84] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I'm not a professional with these words.
[00:13:43.38] - Gregg Garner
Well, I mean you guys don't have to be professionals. Yeah, you're just, we're just adding to the noise online about what a situationship is. But I just, if this is a thing for you guys, I kind of want to understand it.
[00:13:54.30] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, I think you, you got to define a lot of things if you want to define situationship first. Like, yeah, you do got to define friendship and it's not like you have to get super analytical about everything. But situationship is a tricky one because it is like a Gen Z made up term for maybe some sort of lack of something that is in common relationships or friendships that we see in like our modern era, I guess. Um, but like I, I think there's a very distinct line between like my friends, people that I have a vested interest in, like my, my closest circle of people. Like I think there's a difference between all those things. But I think like situationships specifically are like some sort of odd outlier that they just don't get enough attention as far as like you don't talk about it as much. You don't say like feelings when you're thinking about someone or thinking about a relationship with someone. And so I think that's why we're having such this like ping pong back and forth or trying to define it because it's just such an odd into like a weird group, you know.
[00:14:50.33] - Gregg Garner
But like as you're talking about that and if I reflect back on being that college student, that single guy, I bet there were some feelings in there, but like I didn't feel like they needed, I didn't need to answer them. Like I. And you're saying a situationship is where the two people may have feelings but they're not going to talk about them. Yeah, but now there's, there's other people. Because it sounds like a third party description. Like two people in a situationship don't say, hey, we're in a situation.
[00:15:22.98] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, right.
[00:15:23.80] - Gregg Garner
A third party of people go, they're in a situationship. Yeah, right.
[00:15:27.87] - Kaiden Lindholm
Or I think you can be conscious of it if you know. But I also think like a big thing about situationships is like the digital age that we're in. Like you can be easily having a conversation with someone. Like I'll use Instagram for example. You can easily be having a conversation with someone. You can like look at their profile, be like, oh yeah, she's pretty, he's, he's cute. If you're a girl, I don't know, and you can think like, you can think all these things and then you can just swipe out, go to another message and be talking to someone else at the same time. So it's situational in that way where like if you're having a bad day and you know like something more about someone else, you want to talk to them, you just hop over to that person. I think the digital age is a huge component to situationships because you can literally unfollow or follow whoever in a mouth.
[00:16:03.82] - Gregg Garner
Let's say you're dating someone, you're, you're in a relationship with someone. Can you also have situationships?
[00:16:10.16] - Emma Lyons
You shouldn't.
[00:16:11.36] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, you shouldn't.
[00:16:12.25] - Emma Lyons
If you want to be an honest partner to your like boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, you should, you would feel.
[00:16:16.88] - Jeff Sherrod
Bad if you on the other end.
[00:16:18.34] - Emma Lyons
Oh yeah, I feel like. Yeah, no, I was.
[00:16:20.34] - Gregg Garner
Situationship is diabetes.
[00:16:22.76] - Emma Lyons
I mean. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Because it's like a, it's. If I were to see two people.
[00:16:29.33] - Gregg Garner
That were like, sounds like situationship is a secret relationship.
[00:16:32.11] - Emma Lyons
It kind of, it's like dancing around dating basically. And in a way that's like, you don't really want the repercussions of dating and you don't really want long term commitment at all. You just kind of want to explore like, oh this, like more of their personality, more of that person.
[00:16:45.67] - Gregg Garner
But why can't you do that? I don't understand.
[00:16:47.85] - Emma Lyons
I think it's because something I've been thinking about as we've been talking is that like Gen Z really has no idea like what healthy male and female friendships look like. Because I know before I came to the institute, like I never was alone with a guy unless I wanted to like pursue something further with him. Like relationally wise. I didn't. Like, I never went out one on one with guys and when I even got here, that was so weird to me. I was like, why are all these people going out one on one? Like, that's so weird to me. And I think Gen Z as a whole kind of reflects that because you can be friends like in a group with guy and girls, but if you're off one on one, like there has to be some sort of interest on either one side or both sides to pursue something further, but you don't really necessarily want to talk about it. I Mean, for most people, I think I would.
[00:17:27.06] - Gregg Garner
But they can't be friends.
[00:17:28.46] - Emma Lyons
Like, they can't just be friends. And like, that's even something I've had to like I've struggled with in the Christian circle is like that anytime you'd want to talk to a guy, have any conversation, someone's like, bam. Situationship.
[00:17:38.54] - Gregg Garner
Because you think it's because your generation has been so inundated with concepts of sexual identity that you guys are always thinking about the sexual identity of somebody in relationship to somebody else. Because I mean, for you, you're saying it's so. It was so weird to see that a guy and a girl could have a friendship and it just be neutral.
[00:18:02.64] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:03.48] - Gregg Garner
Or platonic.
[00:18:04.68] - Kaiden Lindholm
I think I'll use a really heavy word. Like I think we live in a very large like pornographic culture. W. And I know that's heavy for a conversation, but it's the reality. And I think the problem is like there are people that let their, their lusts or their feelings like, drive why they interact with people. I think that's why situationships, they're such like a common thing, but they're such a hard thing to address at the same time because there's so many like moving components. Like it's. I think it all has to do with emotions. I think it all has to do with a lack of accountability and responsibility to really care for someone and really be there for someone. Because you, you can be in a relationship with someone, be in a situationship. When that relationship goes south, you know, you have that fail safe and that thing to fall back on. That's what I meant. Like it's a glorified rebound. Like it doesn't have to be. It can be a friendship and you can be dating someone, but intentions have to be.
[00:18:49.09] - Gregg Garner
So even you all seem to have differing definitions on situationship because for you that would feel bad.
[00:18:55.01] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, I know it would feel bad for me. Like if I, if I'm dating somebody and they're having like a situationship with someone else or they know there's someone on the side, I just feel like I'm being used or like I feel a lot of negative emotions and I'm not going to stay in that relationship.
[00:19:07.97] - Gregg Garner
Okay, let's say you, you, you have a guy and when you meet him and he's totally interested in you, but you find out he has like a really good friend that's a girl, is that a situationship? Because he told you, right? He's like, yeah, we grew up together. She's my Friend, we went to school together and all that kind of stuff.
[00:19:27.53] - Kaiden Lindholm
See, for me, I would have a hard time, like, if I met a girl who like, has like, really close with guy friends, I'd be like, what the heck? But there's girls who like, are not my sisters that I call sisters. And like, I consider them, like, completely platonic. And so I don't know. I think for every person it's different. It's really hard to answer that question.
[00:19:41.26] - Emma Lyons
I think it's also really different coming from a Christian perspective and being raised, like a very strict Christian home. Like, I think I have a very different perspective than most people in the Gen Z culture would. So I think a lot of, like, situational mind that I'm coming from is like, people that I know that weren't raised that way from my home. And so I'm coming from, like, I think I can kind of share both perspectives, but I don't necessarily know what it's like to live in a situationship culture because I never really. I don't think I actively engaged with that. Yeah, relationships were very heavily valued on my part, so I never really engaged.
[00:20:12.08] - Gregg Garner
And when we say relationships, we're talking about the defined. We're not talking about human friendships.
[00:20:17.50] - Emma Lyons
No, no, no. As in like relationships and like boyfriend, girlfriend defined.
[00:20:20.52] - Gregg Garner
Like, in order for it to be a. And this. I asked earlier about the intimacy. Intimacy component because it sounds like in order for it to be a legitimate situationship, there has to be some possibility for relational intimacy.
[00:20:34.25] - Jeff Sherrod
Now, what I read and when I was reading about this, and I didn't read it from a Christian perspective, like how Christian communities deal with this, but it was like kind of a hallmark of. It was like part of the hookup culture.
[00:20:44.26] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. I think situationships. I hate to say that it depends on the situation, but I think it does because, like, I think you can have some that are like more physically intimate, and then I think you can have some that are just like people that Snapchat all the time. And they would define that.
[00:20:57.36] - Kaiden Lindholm
They would define that as situation purely online. Like, it could be purely online. Like you just message.
[00:21:01.40] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. Because I've heard people that like, don't come from Christian perspectives that will talk about someone they had like a situationship with or someone they talked to. And really they just Snapchat to them consistently for like a week. And that was their idea of like.
[00:21:12.09] - Gregg Garner
Is there a reason why you're picking Snapchat as a form? This is so interesting, by the way. This is wild.
[00:21:16.67] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:21:16.94] - Gregg Garner
Is the reason why you're picking Snapchat is because it just. The messages disappear.
[00:21:21.08] - Emma Lyons
I think that's just what people use a lot.
[00:21:22.69] - Gregg Garner
Because, like, just Snapchat is like, this is where we're going to have situationships. So if you saw your guy pull up Snapchat and you know you're not talking on him, are you automatically thinking he's on a situationship?
[00:21:33.00] - Emma Lyons
No.
[00:21:33.77] - Gregg Garner
Okay.
[00:21:34.60] - Emma Lyons
But I think if I was. If I was. If I was not who I am, and I wasn't coming from a Christian perspective and I wasn't in a relationship with somebody who shared the same values, I think I would, if that makes sense. Like, if I was coming from.
[00:21:47.00] - Gregg Garner
So Snapchat is the venue for situations.
[00:21:49.56] - Emma Lyons
Instagram, Snapchat, I think it really.
[00:21:51.48] - Kaiden Lindholm
If you're a little bit older.
[00:21:52.43] - Emma Lyons
But yeah, I would never use Facebook ever. So I wouldn't say Facebook, but I would definitely say Snapchat. Cause, like, people, for some reason, Gen Z just love sending pictures of random things to people. Like pictures of their ceiling fans or like pictures of the corner of their face. Yeah. That's what people do all the time. And that's just like your expectation is that, like, if you're like, Is that like a code?
[00:22:12.86] - Kaiden Lindholm
It's a. It's kind of a mindless kind of thing.
[00:22:14.79] - Emma Lyons
It's a very mindless Snapchat.
[00:22:16.25] - Kaiden Lindholm
It's just like the medium. It's not. It's. I don't think it's any deeper than that. Yeah, it's not like we're meeting on Snapchat.
[00:22:21.14] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:22:21.36] - Kaiden Lindholm
If your mom sees you have Snapchat on your phone, you're talking to a bunch of people. Yeah, it's like, no, it's just a medium. And then things come from that.
[00:22:27.68] - Emma Lyons
I think really, it's just that a lot of Gen Z just lacks depth in pretty much everything they. Not everything they do. That sounds crazy, but in a lot of things they do, they lack depth and they lack intentional thought behind what they do. And so it's just like, oh, I'm gonna, like, engage with this person for just a little bit. But, like, they don't really think about what they're doing and they don't think about the, like, the implications of what they're doing or even the repercussions of what they're doing. And that's kind of when situationships arise is like, oh, I'm just gonna hang out with this person. It doesn't really matter what we do or, like, what we say, because it's just a situation. It doesn't really matter in the long term.
[00:22:58.20] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah. And I think like I'll go back to that social media component. I think it's a big thing. Like I think our generation has a really hard time like having conversations even like this. Like there's a lot of people who just like, they can't, they don't have the capacity, they can't function to like have a sit down conversation about something real. And so social media allows you to put on that mask of like you're just like everybody else. They can't see behind the screen. You're only sending them what you want them to see on a Snapchat. You can send them something with a filter, something where you look pretty good but like that's it. You can get a pretty glamorous life if you let your entire life be, you know, through social media. And so people get a picture of you, they get an image of you and then they start thinking about that and they start like idolizing that idea of like, well this maybe could be something and I'll invest a little bit of time but I won't really go all in. And I think that's the, that's the part about situationships is relationships. Like you, you go in with someone, you're going to agree like okay, we want a date, maybe we want something down the road. Like you have some sort of communication. The situationships, like one foot is in the door and then one foot is like maybe on the line. Like one foot's not even out. It's like I don't really know but it kind of feels interesting, you know.
[00:24:02.11] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, I, I mean there's the la. I know I'm bringing up the Atlantic article, but they kind of refer to the same thing. And one of the things that she gets out of the author, she talks about that they think that Gen Z is missing an important rite of passage which is just having a relationship in college. Like getting your heart broken is good and learning to work out relationships. And so there is like you know, 50% and this is of Gen Z, this is self reported data. 50% of Gen Z reported to having a romantic relationship when they were teenagers. That's compared to 76 Gen Xers and 78 Boomers.
[00:24:36.61] - Gregg Garner
What was the first one again?
[00:24:37.86] - Jeff Sherrod
Percentage.56. And I didn't get, for some reason I don't have data on millennials. I don't know exactly why, but it's a, it's a 20% drop in about, you know, 20 some odd years. So that's, it is a It is. Now again we don't know what real romantic relationship because that's the, that's the self reported part.
[00:24:55.22] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:24:55.61] - Jeff Sherrod
So someone might be like not a romantic relationship but it might be something else.
[00:24:59.32] - Gregg Garner
So Jen. Jen X and the boomers would have like probably reported some of these situationships as a romantic relationship. Right.
[00:25:08.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Because there was more, I guess there was more freedom to call something.
[00:25:11.76] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:25:12.25] - Jeff Sherrod
A relationship.
[00:25:12.99] - Gregg Garner
So that might be responsible for it.
[00:25:15.66] - Jeff Sherrod
Might be, right. It might be. Yeah. They're just calling it something different. And then also this is general social survey. This is a long running poll. About 3,000Americans found that in 2021, 54% of participants aged 18 to 34 Gen Z reported to not having a steady partner. In 2004 only 33% said the same thing. So that's a 20% change to in about 20 years. So whether it's romantic relationship or steady, this is all how you know, researchers have to use words. Right.
[00:25:47.96] - Gregg Garner
So yeah, I know like my parents generation, they use the, the term steady.
[00:25:53.08] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. They even. But this one isn't just like you're going steady just identifying did you have a steady relationship? And then you know, so an implication.
[00:26:02.18] - Gregg Garner
Is of the romantic nature.
[00:26:04.96] - Jeff Sherrod
Right, Right. Yeah, that's the implication. So and then let me give you one more. This is the hinge survey Gen Z daters. 90% of participants said that they wanted to find love. But 56% that fear of rejection that kept them from pursuing potential relationships. 57% said they refrained from confessing their feelings about someone because they worried it would be a turn off.
[00:26:27.42] - Gregg Garner
So isn't that just human?
[00:26:30.24] - Jeff Sherrod
I think that researchers are noting whether it's a change in, you know there's also other studies that says Gen Z has less sex than what millennials or Gen. Really? That's the, that's the, that's the study. Yeah. It's just there's, there's less romantic relate, there's less intimate relationships that are happening kind of across the board and then just less defined relationships. And maybe it's human but there might be something to even what Kate is saying like maybe presence of pornography, presence of social media. Yeah, maybe there's other stuff that's like.
[00:27:02.74] - Gregg Garner
The, the digital aspect and the, the virtual relationships that could exist outside of a visceral experience. Really does. That's the big change.
[00:27:14.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, that's the big change that's happened. So and, and what that's going to look like, you know, so there's.
[00:27:18.26] - Gregg Garner
Because you're saying effectively if I can just ask for Clarity. Someone could have a situationship and never have physically been in the room with that person.
[00:27:26.50] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, I would say yes to that.
[00:27:27.75] - Emma Lyons
I would also agree.
[00:27:28.83] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, yeah, that's different.
[00:27:30.68] - Gregg Garner
So can you. Can you have a situationship with a chat? Bottom. You know how, like, you can go on these AI forums and, like, it's like this. You can, like, type in the personality and whatever that you like, and next thing you know, students are talking to them and then, I mean, it's.
[00:27:47.15] - Emma Lyons
I mean, you'd have to be pretty desperate.
[00:27:50.13] - Gregg Garner
It's a big thing right now.
[00:27:51.35] - Jeff Sherrod
It's a massive thing.
[00:27:52.63] - Gregg Garner
Are, like, building relationships with AI generative characters that are even from some of their, like, favorite anime or, or whatever it is. And then they're building relationships with them and you think they're texting with someone, but it's. They're just talking to this. Even body.
[00:28:08.45] - Jeff Sherrod
Even sexual relationships.
[00:28:09.52] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, like, it's across the board that you can have.
[00:28:11.89] - Jeff Sherrod
That you can have. Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:14.58] - Kaiden Lindholm
I think that's just delusion.
[00:28:16.71] - Jeff Sherrod
That's not a situation.
[00:28:18.39] - Gregg Garner
So you're just hating on Gen Alpha now, huh?
[00:28:20.84] - Jeff Sherrod
Honestly, no, it's real partner. They understand me.
[00:28:24.84] - Emma Lyons
That's just. Wow.
[00:28:26.65] - Kaiden Lindholm
Keep saying it, keep saying it.
[00:28:27.93] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, that's crazy.
[00:28:29.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:28:29.86] - Emma Lyons
I think it really all comes down to, though, like, Gen Z just, I think at the core is just insecure in who they are as a whole. And so they hate to put themselves out there because what if someone wouldn't like who they actually are? And I think that comes back to social media, too, because really, on social media you can paint yourself to be whatever another person wants you to be. And so if you're being what somebody else wants you to be, and then you say, like, hey, I actually like you, and they get to see parts of you that you don't want them to see, and that's scary. And then they might back away. And so it's like, oh, let's just keep this thing kind of up in the air where you don't really know if I like you. And I don't really know if I like you either, or I don't know if you like me, but we're just gonna kind of hang out because we like company and we like attention, but we don't want to actually be who we really are because we're afraid to be that and we're afraid to be rejected because of that.
[00:29:13.38] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:29:16.18] - Jeff Sherrod
There is some evidence. Like the part. Another research I saw was that people who said that they had defined relationships in high school report later that they have more self confidence and. As opposed to people that didn't.
[00:29:30.50] - Emma Lyons
Interesting.
[00:29:31.20] - Jeff Sherrod
They just look back on me like, you know, having someone else. I guess the idea is having someone else tell you that I like you and I'm willing to, you know, put myself out there is like a. That's a confidence booster. Yeah. And maybe that gets taken in a situationship. It's like, well, they're not. They don't like me enough to say something about this or something like that.
[00:29:53.91] - Gregg Garner
But I thought you guys said that a situationship is effectively destined to not work. It's not supposed to go anywhere.
[00:30:02.51] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah. I think a big, A big factor too, that I don't know if we've considered is like, that you can have multiple situationships. I think you can. You can be. Yeah.
[00:30:10.74] - Gregg Garner
This much.
[00:30:12.24] - Kaiden Lindholm
Wow. Okay. Yeah. I think that's a good vocabulary that describes it. But I wasn't ready for that. Yeah, I think that's. It's a big.
[00:30:20.53] - Gregg Garner
And they would all be like different levels.
[00:30:22.48] - Kaiden Lindholm
It could be. I mean, like, we'll go have a.
[00:30:24.60] - Gregg Garner
Same sex situationship and not be a homosexual.
[00:30:30.58] - Emma Lyons
No, I'm just gonna say no. No, no. No way.
[00:30:33.86] - Kaiden Lindholm
No.
[00:30:34.45] - Gregg Garner
So if you have a same sex situational ship online, then you're a homosexual?
[00:30:41.86] - Kaiden Lindholm
I mean, I mean, I think it's a very. I'd say no. That's an objective thing. Yes. A situationship is deeper than a friendship. It's something that like you're considering some sort of relationship or some sort of pursuit of someone with no strings attached, without their, like an obligation for you to like really show up for them. I think a situationship, I mean, so.
[00:30:59.61] - Gregg Garner
It is connected to sexual identity then.
[00:31:01.98] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, I think it can be. Yeah.
[00:31:03.82] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:04.41] - Gregg Garner
For sure. I think. Yeah, it is.
[00:31:07.29] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:31:07.99] - Gregg Garner
Because if it wasn't, then you would say no. That's just someone they're. They're confiding in, opening up their heart to.
[00:31:15.42] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. Then it for sure does.
[00:31:16.92] - Gregg Garner
There's a same sex attraction there that then indicates sexual identity. Yeah.
[00:31:22.16] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. It's definitely more than just like, oh, we're hanging out because we're friends. Like there's a deeper level than just friendship.
[00:31:28.86] - Gregg Garner
So how do you develop an intimate relationship with someone that's a friend and you don't want them to think that it's sexually oriented. Which may be why you were so shocked coming to see it was guys and girls, because to you, in your mind it was like, how could it not?
[00:31:49.60] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, yeah, it was. I don't. I don't know. I think that's something that I'm still trying to figure out because I remember, like, one of. I think it was my first term here. Like, one of the guys had made, like, an off comment, just been like, hey, we should get together sometime. And I was like, oh, just the two of us. I was like, that's weird. I don't want to go there. I was like, I just came here like, a couple weeks ago. I was like, I only know what you want from me. Like, how you know me this much. And. And I. I remember, like, even a couple weeks later, after talking to some of my girlfriends, like, feeling really silly for, like, reacting that way because I didn't know that it was just like, a mutual friendship because I had never seen that displayed before. Even, like, I think something that really impacted my view of it was, like, the way that I had watched married couples interact too, because, like, married couples around me, like, really didn't have many other friends, especially different, like, different gender friendships. Like, my mom never was, like, with girls or not. Sorry. My mom was never, like, friends with guys, and my dad was just never friends with girls. And so growing up, it was just, girls stick to girls, guys stick to guys, and we never really cross paths except for when you find someone attractive and then you date them and you marry them. And that's pretty much all I heard of. And so for me, it's like, it's still something that I'm. I'm trying to figure out of. Like, how do I. How do I have, like, good quality friendships with guys that I really value without them having, like, any idea of, like, pursuing it further romantically when I don't want that? And I really don't know because I feel like it's really awkward to, like, go hang out with somebody. Like, hey, just so you know, we're just friends, like, all the time. Because that feels really awkward and. And weird.
[00:33:18.46] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So how do you quench the possibility of a situationship? Do you. You. You just abruptly go, hey, this is just friends. Does that kill it? Or you do, like, a meal being like, hey, sis, I love hanging out with you. Does that kill it? Like, do you have to utilize your friend to, like, you know, diffuse the potential bomb of a situationship? Like, I'm like, this is. This is kind of interesting. Like, can you be in a situationship you don't know you're in?
[00:33:44.95] - Emma Lyons
I think so. I think so. Yeah, actually, I think so. I think it's different with the guys here because, like, I think, at least coming from my perspective, that there is Kind of this mutual understanding that like baseline level, we're all just friends, like trying to pursue the Lord together. And I think there's a, there's like a comfort in that because you don't really have to have those DTRs. You only really have to have them when you feel like there's some romantic pursuit either from that person or from you. But outside of here, like when there's not that understanding. I really, I don't know. I don't know how you would go about that.
[00:34:17.17] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, I, I think situationships are. They really only take place when there is nobody addressing it. When there's nobody. Like so. But this is, it's a very worldly thing. I don't think it's very present in the Christian community or as much as it is in the world comparatively. I think like friendships here. Like my experience at the institute has been like, yeah, I've pursued my sisters as sisters, like the girls on campus, like they're my sisters. I know that my brothers as brothers, like they got my back. I know that the girls do too. But sometimes, you know, the guys, you know, you know, they're stronger. I'm just kidding. But the, the point that I'm getting at here is the world has like a flipped view of guy and girl relationships and dynamics. Like me, my experience in public school was, you know, if a guy and a girl are walking in the hallway, there's probably something more than just a.
[00:35:10.73] - Emma Lyons
Friendship because probably a situationship.
[00:35:12.82] - Kaiden Lindholm
Probably a situationship. And that's not always across the board.
[00:35:16.30] - Gregg Garner
This is giving me more evidence to say that there is like a hypersexual identity lens on your guys perspective about all human relationships.
[00:35:26.53] - Kaiden Lindholm
Well, I think it's the biggest thing that I think is different that I've noticed here at the institute. Like I don't see a guy and girl walking here and I'm like, oh yeah, they're into each other. What I see is I know that this community and this school like prioritizes letting God's word define why we're walking, why we're doing things. And so with that we're gonna walk out relationships and friendships in the same way. Like we have some sort of mutual understanding and something to agree upon. And so we're gonna walk in that way.
[00:35:51.05] - Gregg Garner
But isn't that gonna maybe backfire so that. Let's say that this sister in Christ, I mean, because realistically my wife is my sister in Christ, right?
[00:36:01.13] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:36:01.48] - Gregg Garner
In terms of how we understand things theologically. But for your guys's generation, if then you develop this nice friendship with. If you're a guy with a girl who you consider to be your sister, but then all of a sudden, like, you feel like romantic feelings might arise, does that disqualify them from that? Because now you're going to breach the friendship thing. Like, can you only find now romantic relationships with people you don't know?
[00:36:25.98] - Kaiden Lindholm
That's tough one. That's a tough one.
[00:36:29.69] - Emma Lyons
I think then you just gotta venture into, like, that define the relationship conversation and just be honest of like, hey, just so you know, I find you really attractive. Or like, hey, just so you know, I really like you and just.
[00:36:40.26] - Gregg Garner
Let's just find a lot. I mean, there are a lot of attractive people.
[00:36:43.46] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:44.32] - Gregg Garner
And different levels of attraction and different ideas as to what attractions. Can't you have a sterile comment to somebody that they're attracted?
[00:36:53.13] - Kaiden Lindholm
I. I think so.
[00:36:54.63] - Emma Lyons
Well, yeah, I guess in that sense I was saying it as in, like, I want to pursue something with you.
[00:36:59.01] - Gregg Garner
Okay.
[00:36:59.48] - Emma Lyons
Not just like, oh, you're attractive.
[00:37:00.98] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:01.96] - Gregg Garner
So could you personally comment to another guy and tell him he's good looking and it not be a situationship?
[00:37:10.75] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yes, I think so.
[00:37:12.23] - Emma Lyons
Personally, I feel like the connotation of, like, good looking, maybe not. But, like, if I liked Kaden's outfit, I'd be like, yeah, I like your outfit. It looks nice. And I. And I think we both have that understanding that, like, we're not coming from a romantic pursuit. We're just like, telling someone their outfit.
[00:37:28.13] - Gregg Garner
Is nice could be interpreted.
[00:37:30.65] - Emma Lyons
Yes. Yeah. Actually, funny story. One of my first couple days at.
[00:37:34.00] - Gregg Garner
The Instagram, I'm just like, I'm. I'm a complimentary guy. I notice things. I'm very observant.
[00:37:40.26] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. Some relationships. One of the boys.
[00:37:44.94] - Gregg Garner
Tape on my mouth.
[00:37:46.42] - Emma Lyons
One of the boys in the blue house. One of my. One of my first weeks of school. Like, I forget if it was in the guy's dorm. Yes, sorry. Yeah, yeah, he commented. I forget if it was about my hair or my outfit. Nonetheless, she was like, wow, Emma, you look really good today. And I was like, thanks. And I didn't really know how to interpret that.
[00:38:05.19] - Gregg Garner
You didn't know how to say just like, thank you?
[00:38:06.98] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. I felt really awkward because a guy had never really complimented me unless it was in a romantic sense. Unless it was like, something.
[00:38:14.32] - Gregg Garner
Isn't that the guy's fault in the culture at large?
[00:38:23.38] - Emma Lyons
I don't know, because I think that.
[00:38:25.88] - Gregg Garner
So you want compliments to be reserved to only the one person you have a romantic relationship.
[00:38:33.51] - Emma Lyons
Not right Now I think I've really grown in the way that I view that. But before I came here, yeah, I was like, I don't really want any other guy to be, like, complimenting me, because that's just like, only something that you do if you're in a romantic relationship. And I remember, like, a couple summers ago, one of the boys I was working with had complimented my hair. And I remember I had, like, kind of feelings for him, but not really feelings. And I remember, like, as soon as he said something, it was like butterflies in me. Like, oh, my gosh, he's in love with me. He saw my hair, he noticed it, and it was like all these things that was like, just a normal thing for a guy to do. He did end up having feelings for me, so I was right. But.
[00:39:08.17] - Gregg Garner
But is that wrong that he had feelings for.
[00:39:10.44] - Emma Lyons
No, no, no, no, no. But it was like, I think in my head, like, immediately it was like one of the only times that guy had ever complimented me. And so I was like, he has to have feelings for me because he complimented me. Or, like, there should be something that arises in me because he complimented.
[00:39:25.01] - Gregg Garner
So if someone's in a situationship and you know they're in a situationship, but you also like them, can you assert your feelings onto the person in the situationship that you're aware of?
[00:39:35.01] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yes.
[00:39:35.86] - Gregg Garner
Okay. And that's cool. That's allowed. Or are you supposed to respect the bounds of the perceived situationship?
[00:39:43.01] - Kaiden Lindholm
No, because the situationship, there's like, no.
[00:39:44.84] - Emma Lyons
There's no bounds.
[00:39:45.57] - Gregg Garner
Okay, well, then. So then, now let's say you're the person on the other side of the situationship, and now you see that the. The other person is being pursued by someone else. Are you allowed to have input into the choice?
[00:40:01.78] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, you can you. Maybe it's not input because it's not like that defined, but maybe you'll, like, step it up and be like, well, I want to spend more time with this person. I. I want to, you know, because it's not a good feeling.
[00:40:12.76] - Gregg Garner
So it's fueled by jealousy.
[00:40:14.30] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, it can be. Yeah.
[00:40:15.34] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:40:15.71] - Emma Lyons
I think if somebody else talking about relationships.
[00:40:18.11] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, yeah. This is all. This is all just new vocabulary for talking about spectrum relational development.
[00:40:23.96] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah, we're. When you're. When you're hearing them talk, I'm curious, like, when. What are you thinking is either that's alarming or concerning or this is just new vocabulary for human interactions between guys and girls. That has always been there.
[00:40:39.17] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I've got so many thoughts. I think it's really important to listen to these guys. That's why I'm just asking questions because I want to learn from you. I want to hear how you all think about and see it. Because my ultimate aim would be to shed some light on it all by scripture. And there, there may be. You can't do that effectively if you don't know what it is you're working with.
[00:41:04.40] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:41:04.80] - Gregg Garner
And so I'm asking questions not to be problematic. I'm trying to figure out, like, what does this mean? What is it? But I've already heard from you all that the generation at large seems to struggle with both vulnerability and depth. Yes, so, so that makes it problematic. But my, my first interpretation of listening to everybody or listening to you guys is first, I just really love you guys. I care for you so much. I do think that like the confirmation bias does enter into something like this because it, like you said earlier, and I was right. I knew he liked me, but I feel bad for the guy because like, what said he wasn't allowed to like you? And then maybe like, why was it bad that he asserted that? And it seems to me that. Let me ask you this question then. If you enter into a relationship with someone and they're not married, they're not even engaged with the relationship, and now someone else complimented one of the couples, let's say the, the a guy complimented the girl in that relationship and she appreciated the compliment. Did this person do bad because he, he knew she was in a relationship? Not a situationship, but a relationship? In other words, are you guys treating relationships like marriages? Like, did this whole thing bump things backwards? Like you're so averse to commitment that you're like, wait a second, we can't even talk about relationships? Let's talk about situationships. Because I think our generation's version of situationship was a relationship, the way you guys are talking about it.
[00:42:42.65] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, well, I think I would say Gen Z as a whole really doesn't have marriage as a big goal because you see people will date for like seven, eight, nine years and that's just normal. And they'll live together and it'll be kind of like you're married. Well, you basically are just without the actual commitment to it. And so I think that the like almost value of situations is like that pre dating because we've seen dating or having a committed relationship as being like you're sold out to them basically until you decide to give later on.
[00:43:10.36] - Gregg Garner
But like, so relationship is marriage.
[00:43:12.84] - Emma Lyons
I think relationship, like serious relationship. I would say Is the end goal of a lot of, like, a serious dating relationship would be the end goal of a lot of Gen Z years. And so I think we've kind of termed the situationship because we're like, well, relationship is such a big deal.
[00:43:27.30] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:43:27.65] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:43:28.36] - Gregg Garner
I mean, you guys have made relationship huge.
[00:43:30.86] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. I think that's what we've done as a culture is like, make a dating relationship.
[00:43:34.78] - Gregg Garner
Listening in on this and they think that they're looking at their kid and they're like, look at them. They haven't even defined their relationship. They don't even talk about each other's boyfriend and girlfriend. So proud of them. Just keeping their options open, recognizing they're young. That's not what's happening.
[00:43:52.15] - Emma Lyons
No, no, no. I'm gonna say no. Like, from parents.
[00:43:56.05] - Gregg Garner
Minds are being blown.
[00:43:57.07] - Emma Lyons
Yeah. Like, from. From my, like, past experience, I was, like, dating a guy when I was, like, 14 or 15, and I think it would have started as something as like. Like you would have defined as a situationship. He's just like, oh, they talk. Oh, they hang out sometimes. And then it ended up, like, being into something more. But, like, I don't know if my parents ever really knew that, like, we considered ourselves dating because it was just like, oh, you would text them every once in a while. I don't know if they're ever gonna see this. I don't know.
[00:44:21.15] - Jeff Sherrod
But, like, it's always a risk.
[00:44:23.30] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, I don't care.
[00:44:24.59] - Gregg Garner
You're adulting right now.
[00:44:25.94] - Emma Lyons
I guess so.
[00:44:26.48] - Gregg Garner
I don't know.
[00:44:28.38] - Emma Lyons
Hey, no, I'm kidding. But, yeah, like, I don't think they ever knew that it pursued and, like, that we pursued more because, like, I think they just saw it as, like, oh, they're just keeping their options open. They're being responsible and young, and we definitely weren't being responsible, like. And so I think, like, I think parents should show some sort of concern whenever or at least pay attention to when their children are having situationships or what. We would define a situationship because it can be something that leads to more and leads to a lot of irresponsibility too.
[00:44:54.90] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Thank you.
[00:44:55.88] - Emma Lyons
Yes.
[00:44:56.65] - Gregg Garner
What do you think, Kaden?
[00:44:58.00] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, it's. It's all tricky. It's all so complex and complicated. I think. I don't think parents should be worried about any sort of, like, oh, my son is hanging out with a lot of girls, or my daughter is hanging out with a lot of guys. I think dynamics and friendships are really healthy and good.
[00:45:16.15] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, for sure.
[00:45:17.46] - Kaiden Lindholm
But communication is a big part and I think that there is a lack of like, intentional communication between parents and children in our era and our. With our generation specifically. I mean, I think it's, it's a really common thing to like, talk way more to your friends about your relationships. And I think that's actually all throughout human history is like talk way more with your friends rather than like directly your mother, your father.
[00:45:40.57] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:45:41.21] - Kaiden Lindholm
And there's just not a lot of intentionality, like, let your parents know. Like, for me, it wasn't like, oh yeah, this girl is this. And you know, I could see a wedding ring on that finger and years to come. Like, it wasn't like that. It was just like, oh yeah, talking to this girl. It's as simple as that.
[00:45:54.78] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:45:55.13] - Kaiden Lindholm
But it wasn't, it was always more complex. And so.
[00:45:57.65] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:58.19] - Jeff Sherrod
Because there might be triggers based upon your parents experience. There's like, all right, once they say boyfriend, girlfriend, that's gonna start a series of conversations that I'm ready for.
[00:46:05.98] - Gregg Garner
Right. But now the vernaculars change.
[00:46:08.55] - Jeff Sherrod
It's like, you really should have had those conversations, but you didn't know that.
[00:46:12.73] - Gregg Garner
Especially when the definition of a situationship is you don't define it.
[00:46:17.09] - Kaiden Lindholm
Right.
[00:46:17.82] - Gregg Garner
Yeah, that's, that's, that's just, it's all, it all follows under that umbrella of removing polarity and putting everything on a spectrum so that everything is just blurry.
[00:46:32.34] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:46:34.05] - Gregg Garner
And that's why, because keep hearing you say on repetition. It's complicated. It's complicated. And I'm like, okay, as complex as a system can be, we should still be able to define its parameters to some degree. But it feels to you guys like it's pretty overwhelming.
[00:46:49.96] - Emma Lyons
Like just ye.
[00:46:50.88] - Gregg Garner
Trying to define situationship.
[00:46:54.09] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:46:54.50] - Gregg Garner
But you're comfortable with that?
[00:46:56.36] - Emma Lyons
I mean, I don't really know that I personally am, but our generation as a whole for sure is because it's just like, I think Gen Z just really likes doing things, to do things without like any consideration to what the repercussions might be from that. And so I think they're fine with just being like, it is what it is. Let's move on. Today's a new day. And then whatever situation they've stayed in the past, whatever, whatever they have in the future, whatever, it's not really a big deal.
[00:47:19.59] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:47:20.17] - Gregg Garner
Do you, do you think your generation. I'm. This, this is completely. I'm allowing for a subjective answer here. Okay. Do you think your generation hasn't lived long enough to realize that everything you guys are doing, especially online, is somehow being cataloged and will be remembered for the whole rest of your life.
[00:47:40.19] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah.
[00:47:40.86] - Emma Lyons
Yes.
[00:47:41.34] - Kaiden Lindholm
I've been.
[00:47:41.82] - Jeff Sherrod
Children's life.
[00:47:42.40] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, I've been thinking about that right now. What if I, like, what if I look back on this podcast in like 20 years and be like, like, what was I thinking? It's making like such a big deal out of nothing.
[00:47:51.63] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:47:51.84] - Gregg Garner
And to think about your kids looking at it and your grandkids, like, do you guys think about that at all?
[00:47:57.38] - Emma Lyons
Yeah, I mean, I think about that all the time. Personally, I'm like, I'm always like, okay, how are people going to perceive this, like 10 years down the road? Or like, how are people going to think about this, you know, later on? But I think Gen Z as a whole really doesn't care. I also think that's because Gen Z as a whole really just doesn't think towards the future that often.
[00:48:12.61] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I've also noticed you guys are race stuff. Stuff.
[00:48:15.44] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:48:16.13] - Gregg Garner
Like, I think, I think for people my age, one of the reasons why they want to put something like on Instagram is because it becomes a scrapbook. It's a digital scrapbook to highlight the events of life. But I noticed you all will actually go back on your timelines and delete posts that that would have contributed to an image of yourself you don't want people to know. So you guys are still editing your history?
[00:48:38.76] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, yeah, we're like so self obsessed. We like care about our image so much because, yeah, we're afraid. We don't want people to see the parts of us that we're not ready to share or we may ever be ready to share if we keep on doing it. And it's a sad reality, but I think that's why situations are so bad.
[00:48:55.57] - Gregg Garner
Well, I just want to, I want to bring in some scripture to this because what keeps coming to mind is the first chapter of the epistle of John, the first epistle, that in him there is light. There really isn't any darkness. So anybody who wants to have fellowship in him must walk into a light. And the implication of that text is that it'll use like God's faithfulness and justness to forgive sins to those who ask for forgiveness. And sometimes we put too many religious overtones on that. We don't really hear what it's saying. But ultimately the writer is communicating, hey, listen, everybody falls short of what it is that God expects us to be as human beings. But when you have fellowship in Christ, there's safety. Because now you can come into the light and you could Know that those shortcomings aren't going to be used against you, that you can be forgiven of your shortcomings, but it's through that walk that you're going to actually grow and develop. But first, you have to humble yourself, be vulnerable. Because the podcast we did right before this, that was one of the things that came up. They were talking about just humbling yourself into the kind of vulnerability that allows. In that conversation, it was yourself to have relationships with your professors and administrators and staff of your institution. And both of them were highlighting. They needed to really fight their flesh to allow that to happen. But the Bible is teaching us that if you want to experience fellowship in the light, then you're going to have to be ready for the fact you've got a lot of shortcomings. While those shortcomings can be forgiven, they. It's not like they get erased. They actually become part of our testimony.
[00:50:38.21] - Emma Lyons
Yeah.
[00:50:38.90] - Gregg Garner
You know, we start actually sharing with people like you were this weekend with. Do you remember Marcos's testimony at the park where he opened up talking about his relationship with his dad and how it was just so hard, and he really didn't like his dad so much so that even when he went to jail, he didn't have ID on him. He told them his name was his father's name so that it could be credited against his dad. And then. And then he, like, he. He turned into alcoholism.
[00:51:12.07] - Gregg Garner
I mean, he was just super vulnerable in a public park in front of everybody, testifying because he wanted to get to the place that when his mom convinced him to come to church and she told him that there's no friend like Jesus, and your friends are not doing good for you in your life. There's no friend like Jesus. He. He came in that relationship with Jesus, and he never drank again, and he never went back on that. And he's so happy that he's got kids now or in high school that they've never seen their father drunk. Like, he had to see it. They've never seen his father go to prison. Like, they had to see it, but he was so in the light, it was almost, like, offensive that he. And I could look at the young people listening. I was like, I wonder how they're feeling this. So when you. When your generation, you think, here's that scripture. How does that feel to you? When all of a sudden it's like, come into the light with all your shortcomings, all your vulnerabilities, and learn how to walk in that light as you are. Yeah. Does that feel intimidating or bad.
[00:52:07.82] - Emma Lyons
Gen Z hates that. Like, they. I mean, they just hate. And I think I can include myself in this. Like, we just hate vulnerability. We hate showing, like, what is really inside because that's scary if people don't like that. And so we like to walk around with this idea that, like, people could only see the things that we portray ourselves to be. And we could portray ourselves to be a totally different person than we actually are. And. And so we can tell people, like, all the good things we've done. And I think that's why Gen Z loves to tell people good things that they've done, because it almost, like, makes up for something bad that someone has heard they've done. Because people hate being known by the bad things they do. I mean, I think that's just a, like, human history thing. But I think Gen Z especially is so afraid to let them let themselves and, like, all of themselves be known by multiple people that are going to hold them accountable to their shortcomings. That's, like. That's very intimid to a lot of people.
[00:52:55.82] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah. I was talking to my roommate, Zeke, at the beginning of the year when I first got here, and I was telling him about. I just feel like I have broken trust and I feel like I can't trust people. I feel like I've had a hard time, like, believing that people are genuine. Like, I had a. I had a hard time understanding the guy and girl dynamics too, Emma. Like, seeing people go out on friend dates. I was like, yeah, right.
[00:53:13.76] - Emma Lyons
That's funny because. That's funny because I actually thought that about you with some of the girls I saw you going out with. And I was like, oh, great. Sorry.
[00:53:22.67] - Kaiden Lindholm
But back to, like, what I was getting to before I just got called out.
[00:53:26.17] - Emma Lyons
Sorry.
[00:53:27.88] - Gregg Garner
That's the whole point of this conversation.
[00:53:29.73] - Kaiden Lindholm
There we go.
[00:53:31.23] - Emma Lyons
Walking in the light.
[00:53:32.34] - Kaiden Lindholm
Yeah, Keeping the light. Let's go. I think one of. One of the biggest things that I have learned is being in a community where the Bible is, like, taken seriously calls for a sense of vulnerability that is, like, unmatched to the world's vulnerability. The world's vulnerability is. Yeah. Simple as, like, deleting a post and, like, making some sort of image of yourself. Like, that's vulnerable. Like, I'm gonna post something in general, and when I'm in a bad season of life, I'm gonna turn all my posts off and, like, that's that. And then recently, like, I think it was like, five weeks ago, Zeke asked me again about, like, how have you been doing with, you know, how you feel, you can trust people. And I told him this, I told him I have been immersed in a community that cares for the Lord in more of a way than I've ever seen before. They prioritize the Bible and applying it to their lives in the. The best way I've ever seen it. And also, like, I just, I told Zeke, like, I just feel loved and I feel like there's love here. And so I have no reason to not open myself up and tell people. Like I'm. I tell people all the time like I'm an open book, like, you can ask me any question because, one, I know it's good for me. I know it's what I need. But two, if the people around me don't understand my story, they don't understand where I come, I come from and like, what I've been through. They won't understand how to better serve me. And I think the big problem with situationships and the big reason why they're so common is there isn't any of that opening up. And it's just kind of, you have this image of who you want to be and you're presenting it to someone, and when that image doesn't even work out, then you move on to the next person with that same image and you're trying to figure it out. And then it's just a lot of brokenness, a lot of pain. And I'm confident to say now, yeah, I trust people because I know the word of God is being prioritized. I know that that walking in the light is the best thing for me. And I know that if, if I don't open myself up and if I don't go out of my way to like, really be intentional with the way I speak and the way that I, I share, then I am just going to harm relationships in the long run because I'm not being my authentic self, I'm not being my true self. I'm putting up an image. Then I'm just, you know, not really building people up because I could be, you know, sharing with them pearls that they really know. Like, wow, thank you for sharing that. And I think a big point that I wanted to talk about too is my broken trust has also led me to, like, reserve things and like, say, I'm never sharing that because my trust has been broken. And if I share it with you, what makes you think that you're not going to break that trust again? And so, because I've had people look me in my eyes, people Very close to me. Say, like, I. I would never do blank to you. I would never leave you. I'd never hurt you in that way. Then they do that, and then you get into a community like this where the Bible is prioritized, and they. They love the Word, and you're like, yeah, I don't know if I can trust that.
[00:56:01.38] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:56:01.98] - Kaiden Lindholm
There's a. You have to open yourself up and you have to walk in the light. And I think. I think I learned how to do that my second term spec. Weekly. I really did that because I went through Psychology of Faith Development, one of my classes here. And just walking through my development and, like, what has made me me, that changed a lot. And I. I'm confident and happy to say that because of, like, a class like that that really, like, was intentional. Like, dig deep and, like, let other. I hated it, but it was the best thing about that class. I had to be vulnerable and share with people things that really, like, were difficult and dark for me. But now they understand me. They know me better.
[00:56:38.46] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:56:38.86] - Kaiden Lindholm
And so I have a.
[00:56:40.19] - Gregg Garner
And you don't have to have a romantic relationship with all.
[00:56:42.82] - Kaiden Lindholm
Exactly. It's beautiful.
[00:56:45.21] - Gregg Garner
I think that's the part that kind of hurts my heart for you guys is like, there's so much value in the body of Christ, and we have a responsibility to build each other up. But if every relationship is a potential romantic relationship, that feels exhausting.
[00:57:01.11] - Jeff Sherrod
I'm so tired.
[00:57:01.82] - Gregg Garner
Like, I'm so tired just thinking about what you guys have to go through. If that's what it's like. It just. I think I might even isolate. I think it might have a backfire. And I would just, like, want to be alone all the time just because I wouldn't want to be misunderstood, I don't know. Or responsible. And it just gets back to that disorder that exists when you don't have the lordship of Jesus, because the lordship of Jesus should bring that kind of vulnerable honesty and. And order. I'll tell you guys a story. Okay. My best friend in college, there's this girl that he really liked. He actually dated her in junior high and kept up with her. She moved away in high school. He kept up with her all the way throughout high school. And then when he found out what college she was going to, he followed her there to that college. It's the whole reason why I went there. Wow. And I ended up meeting him at college, and we grew in our relationship really fast. And it was the second semester, which is you guys, like, their third term, second semester. And he was just telling me how much he cared for her. And I was. The guy. I was, like, encouraging. I was like, mom, you just tell her. And so literally, we went to her third story dorm window. He threw a rock, little rocks on the door. She came to the window and, like, he just confessed his love to her, told her that he cared about her, loved her. Even, like, use poetic language. Like, I can see my unborn children in your eyes. Like, that was a quote, unquote, Right.
[00:58:32.86] - Emma Lyons
I feel like. I feel uncomfortable. Somebody told me that. I don't know. I don't really know how I feel about that.
[00:58:37.65] - Gregg Garner
But the girl, she. She laughed and she was so kind and receptive. And then she. After his long speech, she just goes, that's the best thing ever. You're so sweet. I just don't feel that way about you. I consider you like a brother. And he was crushed. But let me tell you, they. They were. They themselves were best friends and continued being best friends even into adulthood, into their 20s, their 30s, in the beginning of their 40s. He ended up passing. And the girl's my wife now, so the guy that. My best friend that confessed to that girl that thing ended up becoming my wife.
[00:59:16.44] - Jeff Sherrod
You saw her out that window and.
[00:59:17.53] - Gregg Garner
You'Re like, I didn't think anything. I was just like, I feel bad for this guy. I just felt terrible for him. But, like, I knew that they had this childhood relationship and they are friends together, and. And it. I just. I also just. I traveled a lot and did a lot of things, and he always took care of her, and she knew she could confine him. It was a very valuable friendship that came from two people that just got really honest and then eliminated the possibility through honesty. And that's not to say he didn't try again, because he did try one more. One or two more times. But she was very clear on her resolve. And I don't know, I think about, for you guys, like, the aversion to risk related to being rejected.
[01:00:01.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[01:00:01.84] - Gregg Garner
Like that. That. That is. That is part of. Of experiencing humility. And. And the power of vulnerability is putting yourself out there to know what's the truth. Otherwise, you stay in your head and you can invent new worlds in your head where nothing is accountable to whatever anyone else says. It can get pretty intense.
[01:00:27.32] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. This has been great conversations. I'm. I'm appreciative that you guys were vulnerable even as we were talking about vulnerability and with your own experiences and. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to pray for. I'M grateful that you guys were able to guys. Yeah. To be able to be part of that.
[01:00:45.46] - Gregg Garner
Super helpful and for other like we want you guys to throw in your comments and this could be a conversation that would be really interesting to hear more Gen Z thoughts on.
[01:00:55.67] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Because I'd like to, I mean part of even what I'd like to get to is possibility of long term relationships, you know like and we're not gonna do that right now but yeah. So there's a lot to talk about this one. Thanks so much for joining us. See you guys next time on College Conversations. Thanks for joining us today on College Conversations. Please like subscribe share this episode with others. If you guys have a comment we would love to hear from you. If you want to learn more about our work you can visit us at theinstituteforgod. Edu. Until then, we'll see you guys next time.
